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In Reply to: RE: Why.. did you ask ? posted by Garg0yle on September 17, 2015 at 17:13:34
Hello!
First of all - to continue dispelling the factual errors - nowhere did I state that "open baffles do not interact with the room!" Where did you get such a thing? What is true, however, is that due to their dispersion (cancelation at the sides, to dumb it down), dipoles interact with the room (in the bass frequencies, where it matters) much less than boxed speakers.
"Satisfied with not having any bass" - again you reveal nothing other than the fact that you have zero experience with the type of speaker you're disparaging.
Here's a little something for you to chew on: I've owned over $300,000 of audio equipment in the last 15 years. That's right - well over a quarter of a million bucks. Within the past year I've owned a commercial front-horn system that currently retails for over $40,000. Yet, I've chosen these simple speakers - GPA 604 drivers mounted on (2" thick) JE Labs open baffles - as my long-term reference. Now, it may be that, as you allege, I just can't hear (nor can my Rat Shack meter measuring pink noise), but there is is. FWIW.
I'm not saying the OBs are 'better' than the horns, either - they aren't - but they are pretty damn good for acoustic music especially. Red Clay is playing right now, and boy it is good (and I have been the the Blue Note and the Vanguard in the past couple of months, incidentally).
(You may not be aware - since you aren't familiar with the speakers you're criticizing - that the 604 is only a OB in the bass and partially in the mids, since the tweeter is a horn. And isn't the same true of the Tannoy? Granted, I do not have any experience with those on this type of baffle, which is why I haven't commented on such a thing definitively.)
(Also, you may want to look into why Yamamoto-san - who, for some reason, many think has quite a good ear - choose the 604 on these same baffles for one of his flagship speakers.)
I am probably about done sparring with anonymous souls here with no experience or understanding of what they're commenting on. I was curious if anyone has tried the big tannoys on these type of baffles since the Altecs work so well, but have not heard from anyone who has, so that is about that.
Follow Ups:
"First of all - to continue dispelling the factual errors - nowhere did I state that "open baffles do not interact with the room!" Where did you get such a thing? What is true, however, is that due to their dispersion (cancelation at the sides, to dumb it down), dipoles interact with the room (in the bass frequencies, where it matters) much less than boxed speakers."
-Well duh, in your own words, it can't interact if it's not there!
"Satisfied with not having any bass" - again you reveal nothing other than the fact that you have zero experience with the type of speaker you're disparaging."
-Are you talking about the Tannoy or Altec?
"Here's a little something for you to chew on: I've owned over $300,000 of audio equipment in the last 15 years. That's right - well over a quarter of a million bucks. Within the past year I've owned a commercial front-horn system that currently retails for over $40,000."
-This doesn't impress me much, I'm like Shania Twain.
All this proves is that you can't think for yourself, rather you threw money at the challenge and failed miserably. lol
You should have come here first, I (or others) would have directed you to the 604 and would only have cost you around 3 or 4 grand.
"Yet, I've chosen these simple speakers - GPA 604 drivers mounted on (2" thick) JE Labs open baffles - as my long-term reference. Now, it may be that, as you allege, I just can't hear (nor can my Rat Shack meter measuring pink noise), but there is is. FWIW."
-I don't recal saying you can't hear. I have also choose the 604E as my reference, but I took a shortcut and didn't have to burn a quarter million just to find that out. lol
Help me understand how you can have a "reference" with no bass?
"I'm not saying the OBs are 'better' than the horns, either - they aren't - but they are pretty damn good for acoustic music especially. Red Clay is playing right now, and boy it is good (and I have been the the Blue Note and the Vanguard in the past couple of months, incidentally)."
-I didn't say you did. You did imply that they are better then boxes though, which was the focus of my reply.
We already covered why you like it for acoustics, the same reasons a choir sounds good in a church.
"(Also, you may want to look into why Yamamoto-san - who, for some reason, many think has quite a good ear - choose the 604 on these same baffles for one of his flagship speakers.)"
-OK, so I looked up Yamamoto speakers and his flagship is....drum-roll please...a Bass Reflex cabinet!
"I am probably about done sparring with anonymous souls here with no experience or understanding of what they're commenting on. I was curious if anyone has tried the big tannoys on these type of baffles since the Altecs work so well, but have not heard from anyone who has, so that is about that."
-I understand, you didn't get the answer that you had already decided on.
Now you are going to take your ball and go home.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
"First of all - to continue dispelling the factual errors - nowhere did I state that "open baffles do not interact with the room!" Where did you get such a thing? What is true, however, is that due to their dispersion (cancelation at the sides, to dumb it down), dipoles interact with the room (in the bass frequencies, where it matters) much less than boxed speakers."
-Well duh, in your own words, it can't interact if it's not there!
** A joke? Here's the obvious fact: You don't know what you're talking about regarding dispersion (power response). Anyone who does understand those things and reads this thread will understand that.
"Satisfied with not having any bass" - again you reveal nothing other than the fact that you have zero experience with the type of speaker you're disparaging."
-Are you talking about the Tannoy or Altec?
** The speakers I currently own, of course. I stated at the outset that I am running GPA (Altec) 604s and was only curious about the Tannoy drivers. That said, we know that YOU have never heard either driver on any open baffle akin to that under discussion here, correct?
"Here's a little something for you to chew on: I've owned over $300,000 of audio equipment in the last 15 years. That's right - well over a quarter of a million bucks. Within the past year I've owned a commercial front-horn system that currently retails for over $40,000."
-This doesn't impress me much, I'm like Shania Twain.
All this proves is that you can't think for yourself, rather you threw money at the challenge and failed miserably. lol
You should have come here first, I (or others) would have directed you to the 604 and would only have cost you around 3 or 4 grand.
** That is what I expected you to say, which is why I hesistated in offering that information. It's quite an easy retort. However, your conclusion doesn't follow logically from the premise at all. Also, I do own 604s (see the post you initially responded to). Also, I do think it likely I have quite a bit more experience than you. FWIW.
"Yet, I've chosen these simple speakers - GPA 604 drivers mounted on (2" thick) JE Labs open baffles - as my long-term reference. Now, it may be that, as you allege, I just can't hear (nor can my Rat Shack meter measuring pink noise), but there is is. FWIW."
-I don't recal saying you can't hear. I have also choose the 604E as my reference, but I took a shortcut and didn't have to burn a quarter million just to find that out. lol
Help me understand how you can have a "reference" with no bass?
** You're right, that was the other guy. Correction accepted. :) As for "no bass", once again, all you demonstrate is that you have no idea what you're talking about. You certainly must admit you've never *heard* such speakers. What kind of person would dare to offer definitive commentary in such a circumstance?
"I'm not saying the OBs are 'better' than the horns, either - they aren't - but they are pretty damn good for acoustic music especially. Red Clay is playing right now, and boy it is good (and I have been the the Blue Note and the Vanguard in the past couple of months, incidentally)."
-I didn't say you did. You did imply that they are better then boxes though, which was the focus of my reply.
We already covered why you like it for acoustics, the same reasons a choir sounds good in a church.
** I like them better than the one box-implementation of 604s I've heard, yes. As for the latter comment - wow, you don't even understand the 604 driver. The treble is not dipole as it's a horn.
"(Also, you may want to look into why Yamamoto-san - who, for some reason, many think has quite a good ear - choose the 604 on these same baffles for one of his flagship speakers.)"
-OK, so I looked up Yamamoto speakers and his flagship is....drum-roll please...a Bass Reflex cabinet!
** You didn't look very hard at all (surprise). Here you go:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54147.0
"I am probably about done sparring with anonymous souls here with no experience or understanding of what they're commenting on. I was curious if anyone has tried the big tannoys on these type of baffles since the Altecs work so well, but have not heard from anyone who has, so that is about that."
-I understand, you didn't get the answer that you had already decided on.
Now you are going to take your ball and go home.
** Didn't you do that a week or two ago? After it was demonstrating you do not understand dispersion and power response?
Look: I really, honestly do have many better things to do with my time than fight with anonymous internet denizens. So - bonus for you - you get the last word. Have at it.
I'm not anonymous, I'm Garg0yle.
"wow, you don't even understand the 604 driver. The treble is not dipole as it's a horn."
-That's pretty weak and obvious we are talking about the dynamic driver section which covers a good chunk of the mid range.
"Didn't you do that a week or two ago? After it was demonstrating you do not understand dispersion and power response?"
-OK, explain it to me.
"You didn't look very hard at all (surprise). Here you go:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54147.0"
So Yamamoto buries his flagship in a forum post from 2008 and puts his crappy speakers on 6moons for review?
Makes sense.
" The speakers I currently own, of course. I stated at the outset that I am running GPA (Altec) 604s and was only curious about the Tannoy drivers. That said, we know that YOU have never heard either driver on any open baffle akin to that under discussion here, correct?"
-Well that is not entirely correct, I have heard them in the Flamenco cabinets with no back on it. (Lets call it an open baffle with wings.)
I also held it in my hand, neither situation yielded any bass to speak of. lol
"That is what I expected you to say, which is why I hesistated in offering that information. It's quite an easy retort. However, your conclusion doesn't follow logically from the premise at all. Also, I do own 604s (see the post you initially responded to). Also, I do think it likely I have quite a bit more experience than you. FWIW."
-Unfortunately as you have found, experience is not linear. It is dependent on the individuals ability to grasp, retain and apply his or her knowledge that renders an experience level.
"Last word"
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
Hi Paul,
I have a pair of Tannoy MG15's I have reserved to try out in OB. I read this thread hoping to find out what others might be doing but only found resistance to the idea. I have built about 8 pairs of OB using a variety of speakers including the Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris 15's.
I think you are perhaps making one mistake, and that is debating this with people who have a negative attitude and who clearly do not understand the OB potential.
The Silver Iris is based on a cheap 15" Eminence with a high Qts of about 1.2 and provides surprisingly good bass although it could be better detailed and defined. The overall sound is fun but a little unrefined with cheap XO and bottom of the range Eminence compression driver.
The Tannoy has a Qts of about 0.2 and will need help in the bass area regardless of baffle size (within reason ) The problem with increasing baffle width is it presents a huge reflective surface in the room and destroys OB's main attribute, spaciousness. I am considering using some 12" servo subs to augment the lowest 2 octaves. I will high-pass the Tannoys at about 80Hz with a 12dB LLPXO to keep the VLF from unnecessarily modulating the Tannoy cone. The resulting XO slope will nicely match the sealed box subs.
Previous experiments show a huge improvement in midrange clarity and expression when cone is freed from trying to also produce low bass. With low power handling, 65W if i remember, removing bass from the voice coil will allow the system to play louder with less thermal compression. This applies with varying degrees to all speakers
"I think you are perhaps making one mistake, and that is debating this with people who have a negative attitude and who clearly do not understand the OB potential."
Negative attitude? He asked for opinions and got them.
Maybe you guys should have asked your grandmothers instead, I am sure they will give you the blind endorsement you seek.
Have fun.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
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