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It turns out that Altec (and GPA) 604s would quite well on wide, squat (i.e. JE Labs) open baffles - despite what the driver parameters might predict.
What about the 15" Tannoys, new or vintage? Anybody try it?
Follow Ups:
Actually, no more replies from me in this thread.
Here's the story: I've been enjoying my GPA 604 drivers on JE Labs open baffles (off & on, in between other speakers, some costing many times what I have into these) for the past two years. I inquired about others doing this with large Tannoy DCs as they just might work also. Rather than any such experience, or anything relevant to that question, what I got was jeers from people with no experience with such speakers and with limited and/or incorrect understanding of real-world loudspeaker performance.
I did just realize I misspoke in one respect which I now wish to correct: I stated that the disperion (power response) characteristics of these speakers are very similar to the venerated Quad 57s. While this is true in the bass, mid-bass, and midrange, it is not true in the treble; the Quad is a dipole through the entire range, of course, while the compression-driver tweeter of the Altec/GPA 604 obviously is not.
(However, regarding the objection I was initially responding to, that is not relevant. Also, note that these speakers were criticized as "sounding like a church" (artificial reverb) even though they will produce far less sidewall treble reflectioned energy than most boxed speakers with narrow baffles - and, none at all from the rear.)
I highly recommend these speakers to anyone who values the natural reproduction of acoustic music. Again, FWIW (maybe nothing), I have owned many high-end speakers over the years, many of them of the high-efficiency variety, and IMHO these compete with anything and surpass the vast majority in recreating a live jazz club performance in a medium-large listening room. (Again, FWIW, I do take in live jazz regularly, including sometimes at some of the best venus in the world.)
They have excellent timbre (this being mainly a function of the driver/xover, unrelated to the enclosure/platform) and are extremely well-balanced across the entire range, something the vast majority of high-efficiency speakers (saving mainly complex front-horn setups, which are the ultimate IMO) do *not* manage. And they have the microdynamic nuance and macrodynamic slam that eludes even very expensive low/mediium-efficiency boxed speakers.
Joseph Esmilla, who is an accomplished professional violinist, and likely knows much more about what real music sounds like than most here (including me), popularized this platform, though he did not invent it. See his site for plans and information.
I'm done with the thread because I don't enjoy ego-driving pissing matches. And I'm not immune to getting embroiled in them myself. They are a complete waste of time.
So, before I start, nobody's done this?
Clearly it's regarded as a Sketchy proposition, at best.
Although your saying fitting a Sub is surprising.. Telling even.
Notably..IF you have ever owned /used a Tannoy Gold 15
in a 'decent' box, you would know that a sub is simply unnecessary.
So what exactly do you hope sticking a Gold onto a Flat(ish) plate is going to accomplish.. let alone improve upon ?
Not a brickbat.. but a Fair question.
Edits: 09/17/15
The answer to your question is: The same thing it accomplishes for the Altecs - a complete absence of cabinet colorations and a reduction of room interactions via the dipole dispersion. OB bass is the cleanest bass their is - with the possible exception of front horns which have their own strengths certainly.
The fact that a 15" Tannoy in a BR cabinet does not "need" a sub (something many people would disagree with - those who want 1st-octave bass, that is) but one on such an OB would quite obviously doesn't mean the former is a superior speaker.
FWIW, I don't use subs with my 604 baffles. I listen to acoustic music and the bass reach is entirely adequate.
(One thing has been obvious of all the respondents who saw fit to reply with blanket criticisms though they have no experience with this type of speaker: They don't understand them, either.)
Paul I am still confused about your claim that open baffles don't interact with the room, it is quite apparent that they do.
That is what creates that "chorus" effect that one could attribute as the open baffle sound.
Open baffle sounds neat with songs that have rain in them. I had a little pair of 8" open baffles that was amazing with rain, or other background noises, "atmosphere" etc.
If you are satisfied not having any bass, then by all means...you don't need our approval.
Just watch that you don't bottom them out.
FWIW boxes aren't all that bad, if you build 'em big enough a lot of problems can be minimized. BR specs that can approach or exceed that of a sealed box, but yet goes deeper, if you have the space.
If you are willing to experiment, consider building the 50/40 corner soffit cabinets for your duplex.
I am reasonably confident it will be the best imaging you've ever heard.
You will feel as though you can reach out and touch the microphone Norah Jones is singing into. Eerily realistic.
With the wattage and listening levels I use, the box doesn't really get excited. It's pretty big and heavy, so the relative air pressures will be lower then that of typical small boxes. I have yet to identify any colourations. If I crank it all the way up, the horn section starts to sound like a horn, but at my regular listening levels that is not a concern.
Controlled spacial realism like the 50/40 cannot be had with the dipoles, the dipoles flood the room with too much information. Too much nulling and doubling up going on to have that sharp audio focus.
(Unless perhaps you stay relatively near-field.)
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
Hello!
First of all - to continue dispelling the factual errors - nowhere did I state that "open baffles do not interact with the room!" Where did you get such a thing? What is true, however, is that due to their dispersion (cancelation at the sides, to dumb it down), dipoles interact with the room (in the bass frequencies, where it matters) much less than boxed speakers.
"Satisfied with not having any bass" - again you reveal nothing other than the fact that you have zero experience with the type of speaker you're disparaging.
Here's a little something for you to chew on: I've owned over $300,000 of audio equipment in the last 15 years. That's right - well over a quarter of a million bucks. Within the past year I've owned a commercial front-horn system that currently retails for over $40,000. Yet, I've chosen these simple speakers - GPA 604 drivers mounted on (2" thick) JE Labs open baffles - as my long-term reference. Now, it may be that, as you allege, I just can't hear (nor can my Rat Shack meter measuring pink noise), but there is is. FWIW.
I'm not saying the OBs are 'better' than the horns, either - they aren't - but they are pretty damn good for acoustic music especially. Red Clay is playing right now, and boy it is good (and I have been the the Blue Note and the Vanguard in the past couple of months, incidentally).
(You may not be aware - since you aren't familiar with the speakers you're criticizing - that the 604 is only a OB in the bass and partially in the mids, since the tweeter is a horn. And isn't the same true of the Tannoy? Granted, I do not have any experience with those on this type of baffle, which is why I haven't commented on such a thing definitively.)
(Also, you may want to look into why Yamamoto-san - who, for some reason, many think has quite a good ear - choose the 604 on these same baffles for one of his flagship speakers.)
I am probably about done sparring with anonymous souls here with no experience or understanding of what they're commenting on. I was curious if anyone has tried the big tannoys on these type of baffles since the Altecs work so well, but have not heard from anyone who has, so that is about that.
"First of all - to continue dispelling the factual errors - nowhere did I state that "open baffles do not interact with the room!" Where did you get such a thing? What is true, however, is that due to their dispersion (cancelation at the sides, to dumb it down), dipoles interact with the room (in the bass frequencies, where it matters) much less than boxed speakers."
-Well duh, in your own words, it can't interact if it's not there!
"Satisfied with not having any bass" - again you reveal nothing other than the fact that you have zero experience with the type of speaker you're disparaging."
-Are you talking about the Tannoy or Altec?
"Here's a little something for you to chew on: I've owned over $300,000 of audio equipment in the last 15 years. That's right - well over a quarter of a million bucks. Within the past year I've owned a commercial front-horn system that currently retails for over $40,000."
-This doesn't impress me much, I'm like Shania Twain.
All this proves is that you can't think for yourself, rather you threw money at the challenge and failed miserably. lol
You should have come here first, I (or others) would have directed you to the 604 and would only have cost you around 3 or 4 grand.
"Yet, I've chosen these simple speakers - GPA 604 drivers mounted on (2" thick) JE Labs open baffles - as my long-term reference. Now, it may be that, as you allege, I just can't hear (nor can my Rat Shack meter measuring pink noise), but there is is. FWIW."
-I don't recal saying you can't hear. I have also choose the 604E as my reference, but I took a shortcut and didn't have to burn a quarter million just to find that out. lol
Help me understand how you can have a "reference" with no bass?
"I'm not saying the OBs are 'better' than the horns, either - they aren't - but they are pretty damn good for acoustic music especially. Red Clay is playing right now, and boy it is good (and I have been the the Blue Note and the Vanguard in the past couple of months, incidentally)."
-I didn't say you did. You did imply that they are better then boxes though, which was the focus of my reply.
We already covered why you like it for acoustics, the same reasons a choir sounds good in a church.
"(Also, you may want to look into why Yamamoto-san - who, for some reason, many think has quite a good ear - choose the 604 on these same baffles for one of his flagship speakers.)"
-OK, so I looked up Yamamoto speakers and his flagship is....drum-roll please...a Bass Reflex cabinet!
"I am probably about done sparring with anonymous souls here with no experience or understanding of what they're commenting on. I was curious if anyone has tried the big tannoys on these type of baffles since the Altecs work so well, but have not heard from anyone who has, so that is about that."
-I understand, you didn't get the answer that you had already decided on.
Now you are going to take your ball and go home.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
"First of all - to continue dispelling the factual errors - nowhere did I state that "open baffles do not interact with the room!" Where did you get such a thing? What is true, however, is that due to their dispersion (cancelation at the sides, to dumb it down), dipoles interact with the room (in the bass frequencies, where it matters) much less than boxed speakers."
-Well duh, in your own words, it can't interact if it's not there!
** A joke? Here's the obvious fact: You don't know what you're talking about regarding dispersion (power response). Anyone who does understand those things and reads this thread will understand that.
"Satisfied with not having any bass" - again you reveal nothing other than the fact that you have zero experience with the type of speaker you're disparaging."
-Are you talking about the Tannoy or Altec?
** The speakers I currently own, of course. I stated at the outset that I am running GPA (Altec) 604s and was only curious about the Tannoy drivers. That said, we know that YOU have never heard either driver on any open baffle akin to that under discussion here, correct?
"Here's a little something for you to chew on: I've owned over $300,000 of audio equipment in the last 15 years. That's right - well over a quarter of a million bucks. Within the past year I've owned a commercial front-horn system that currently retails for over $40,000."
-This doesn't impress me much, I'm like Shania Twain.
All this proves is that you can't think for yourself, rather you threw money at the challenge and failed miserably. lol
You should have come here first, I (or others) would have directed you to the 604 and would only have cost you around 3 or 4 grand.
** That is what I expected you to say, which is why I hesistated in offering that information. It's quite an easy retort. However, your conclusion doesn't follow logically from the premise at all. Also, I do own 604s (see the post you initially responded to). Also, I do think it likely I have quite a bit more experience than you. FWIW.
"Yet, I've chosen these simple speakers - GPA 604 drivers mounted on (2" thick) JE Labs open baffles - as my long-term reference. Now, it may be that, as you allege, I just can't hear (nor can my Rat Shack meter measuring pink noise), but there is is. FWIW."
-I don't recal saying you can't hear. I have also choose the 604E as my reference, but I took a shortcut and didn't have to burn a quarter million just to find that out. lol
Help me understand how you can have a "reference" with no bass?
** You're right, that was the other guy. Correction accepted. :) As for "no bass", once again, all you demonstrate is that you have no idea what you're talking about. You certainly must admit you've never *heard* such speakers. What kind of person would dare to offer definitive commentary in such a circumstance?
"I'm not saying the OBs are 'better' than the horns, either - they aren't - but they are pretty damn good for acoustic music especially. Red Clay is playing right now, and boy it is good (and I have been the the Blue Note and the Vanguard in the past couple of months, incidentally)."
-I didn't say you did. You did imply that they are better then boxes though, which was the focus of my reply.
We already covered why you like it for acoustics, the same reasons a choir sounds good in a church.
** I like them better than the one box-implementation of 604s I've heard, yes. As for the latter comment - wow, you don't even understand the 604 driver. The treble is not dipole as it's a horn.
"(Also, you may want to look into why Yamamoto-san - who, for some reason, many think has quite a good ear - choose the 604 on these same baffles for one of his flagship speakers.)"
-OK, so I looked up Yamamoto speakers and his flagship is....drum-roll please...a Bass Reflex cabinet!
** You didn't look very hard at all (surprise). Here you go:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54147.0
"I am probably about done sparring with anonymous souls here with no experience or understanding of what they're commenting on. I was curious if anyone has tried the big tannoys on these type of baffles since the Altecs work so well, but have not heard from anyone who has, so that is about that."
-I understand, you didn't get the answer that you had already decided on.
Now you are going to take your ball and go home.
** Didn't you do that a week or two ago? After it was demonstrating you do not understand dispersion and power response?
Look: I really, honestly do have many better things to do with my time than fight with anonymous internet denizens. So - bonus for you - you get the last word. Have at it.
I'm not anonymous, I'm Garg0yle.
"wow, you don't even understand the 604 driver. The treble is not dipole as it's a horn."
-That's pretty weak and obvious we are talking about the dynamic driver section which covers a good chunk of the mid range.
"Didn't you do that a week or two ago? After it was demonstrating you do not understand dispersion and power response?"
-OK, explain it to me.
"You didn't look very hard at all (surprise). Here you go:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54147.0"
So Yamamoto buries his flagship in a forum post from 2008 and puts his crappy speakers on 6moons for review?
Makes sense.
" The speakers I currently own, of course. I stated at the outset that I am running GPA (Altec) 604s and was only curious about the Tannoy drivers. That said, we know that YOU have never heard either driver on any open baffle akin to that under discussion here, correct?"
-Well that is not entirely correct, I have heard them in the Flamenco cabinets with no back on it. (Lets call it an open baffle with wings.)
I also held it in my hand, neither situation yielded any bass to speak of. lol
"That is what I expected you to say, which is why I hesistated in offering that information. It's quite an easy retort. However, your conclusion doesn't follow logically from the premise at all. Also, I do own 604s (see the post you initially responded to). Also, I do think it likely I have quite a bit more experience than you. FWIW."
-Unfortunately as you have found, experience is not linear. It is dependent on the individuals ability to grasp, retain and apply his or her knowledge that renders an experience level.
"Last word"
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
Hi Paul,
I have a pair of Tannoy MG15's I have reserved to try out in OB. I read this thread hoping to find out what others might be doing but only found resistance to the idea. I have built about 8 pairs of OB using a variety of speakers including the Hawthorne Audio Silver Iris 15's.
I think you are perhaps making one mistake, and that is debating this with people who have a negative attitude and who clearly do not understand the OB potential.
The Silver Iris is based on a cheap 15" Eminence with a high Qts of about 1.2 and provides surprisingly good bass although it could be better detailed and defined. The overall sound is fun but a little unrefined with cheap XO and bottom of the range Eminence compression driver.
The Tannoy has a Qts of about 0.2 and will need help in the bass area regardless of baffle size (within reason ) The problem with increasing baffle width is it presents a huge reflective surface in the room and destroys OB's main attribute, spaciousness. I am considering using some 12" servo subs to augment the lowest 2 octaves. I will high-pass the Tannoys at about 80Hz with a 12dB LLPXO to keep the VLF from unnecessarily modulating the Tannoy cone. The resulting XO slope will nicely match the sealed box subs.
Previous experiments show a huge improvement in midrange clarity and expression when cone is freed from trying to also produce low bass. With low power handling, 65W if i remember, removing bass from the voice coil will allow the system to play louder with less thermal compression. This applies with varying degrees to all speakers
"I think you are perhaps making one mistake, and that is debating this with people who have a negative attitude and who clearly do not understand the OB potential."
Negative attitude? He asked for opinions and got them.
Maybe you guys should have asked your grandmothers instead, I am sure they will give you the blind endorsement you seek.
Have fun.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
Not done it.
But have heard a DIY attempt.. a Few Decades ago though.
Wasn't Half bad actually.
But neither was it quite the equal of a decent BR box either.
Recently OB (dipoles :-) are seemingly facing a revival in interest "in Vogue' apparently.
OB designs seem to fare better with High (ish) Qts drivers,
Tannoy DC's are Low Qts units....not the best of choices for Dipole fittment.
Thanks. The thing is that the 604 does not appear to be suited for OB by the numbers either but works extremely well on the JE Labs baffle. (The midbass clarity & weight are about as good as it gets and the overall balance very good when positioned properly.)
While this combination is relatively popular (Yamamoto even does it) use of the Tannoys is about nil from what I can tell.
(FWIW, there are a whole lotta OB speakers I don't care for at all. For example, the tall/thin baffle with widebander & woofer never do it for me. They never sound right to me; there is never any "weight". The 604 on these wide, squat baffles, on the other hand, have weight in spades. They work well in large rooms where even medium-large box speakers tend to sound thin in the power region.)
I suppose by the time somebody's tastes evolve toward the 604/Tannoy, they aren't going to play around with open baffles too much.
Open baffles sound nice at times, but it's kinda a waste to not fully utilize the 15" driver.
Sure you could add a subwoofer, but then space and complexity becomes an issue, compromises that don't really make a whole lot of sense.
Not that there is a wrong and a wright way to do things.
By the time you get the open baffle big enough, you start approaching an infinite baffle, so may as well make a box to save space, unless you are fortunate enough to have a second room so that you can have something resembling a true infinite baffle, that might be interesting.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
Perhaps you should take a listen to a JE Labs-spec OB some time. Bass reach is entirely adequate for acoustic music (a combination of the width and the floor reinforcement). The quality of the mid-bass (with a 15 incher) is superior to virtually anything.
No doubt what bass is there has a nice quality, depends what your goals are and the QTS of the speaker.
Open baffles have two sound fronts exposed to the room, reflections off of the back definitely add ambiance that compliments acoustic instruments, but HiFi it is not.
It is artificial fat.
Again, I can't speak for the Tannoy's, but it my case, it is hard enough to achieve the slam I have now, it would seem to be a misuse of the speaker to give up any of that tactile magic in the lower registers.
I guess you will just have to try it, I'm not having any luck pulling up a basic frequency vs baffle width chart to make a quick guesstimate, but one thing that is for sure is that it will need to be huge. (For Hifi)
One thing I considered was to build a wall 2' in front of the existing wall to create an infinite baffle, or running angled baffles from floor to ceiling in the corners, again simulating an infinite baffle that is like a soffit mount.
Ultimately settled on my 16 cubic 50/40 vented cabinets that tuck into the corner, mimicking a soffit mount and somewhat approaching infinite baffle.
(I played around with open baffles before to which I was able to extrapolate that experience and chose not open baffler the duplex.)
Now on the other hand, if one was going to use a separate woofer, then a 8"- 12" mid range might yield a more practical sized baffle, but then you wouldn't need or get to enjoy what the 15" is capable of.
IMO even acoustical instruments greatly benefit from quality low bass, it makes it sound more dynamic, without it, you're missing that little extra umph on acoustic bass notes and kick drums that make it feel more "live".
Suit yourself these are just my opinions, ultimately I had to buy my lunch.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
This post is the essence of an exact truth !!
Therefor, will not be treated kindly by some of the mysticism members !!
I really don't agree with your generalizations. I've owned many examples of virtually every type of speaker.
To say that OBs are not "hifi" because they have rear reflections is quite silly. Of course, OBs have more controlled dispersion than anything other than front horns - they are more, er, "hifi" for that reason. Are boxed speakers not "hifi" because they have the sidewall reflections that OBs lack?
Furthermore, in the bass, no speaker is really just a speaker - the speaker + the room is the speaker. But, again, OBs have *less* room interaction generally than anything other than front horns.
Every speaker platform involves very real trade offs. There is no perfect speaker - nothing even close, actually. The lack of box resonances and lack of side reflections of the open baffle platform are actually substantial plusses that can get you not only "hifi", but a very good facsimile of live acoustic music (my goal; live jazz is my reference).
As for the bottom octave, that's what subs are for.
Cheers,
Paul
If you say so.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
"If I say so", which part? Please correct me if I'm wrong. This is just a hobby and I want to have only correct knowledge about it.
I'm pretty sure that what I said regarding dispersion, power response, and room interaction is accurate.
Well, I thought I was in a minority with my campaign against open baffles.
I think I still am, but once in a while, someone like Mr. Garg0yle
will come along and expose the ugly truth. As per Beranek, any attempt
to divulge facts against the use of an open baffle for any thing resembling bass, will result in varying degrees of hostility.
This dive into an open baffle design is a typical myth following, gone rampant, never before seen except maybe the likes of Tulip Bulb Mania.
"Your fooling yourself if you don't believe it".
It's not hi-fidelity, it is indeed mysticism.
Mysticism often sells good.
Then again, I have recently discovered, most audiophile are really nice guys; very few of them can actually hear.
Hopefully, you are young... to parade such arrogance...interests "young women etc, etc, etc. A non eclectic list of interests.
Perhaps, you could research AND listen more and quite possibly,
Learn,
that taste varies and every choice beset with compromise.
Let us hope your ego will diminish in order to allow compromise for the present "set in stone" thoughts you faun over.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
LOL!
I have no idea what you're talking about. These speakers measure remarkably flat in-room from 50-14K cycles with the exception of a mid-bass hump that really, frankly, is not too bad and certainly doesn't *sound* it.
(BTW - these are shaped and radiate just like Quad 57s - there is a reason they are a classic.)
I think you may spend too much time with spreadsheets and not enough thinking about room interaction and psychoacoustics, but whatever. Enjoy whatever speakers sound good to you.
"These speakers measure remarkably flat in-room from 50-14K cycles with the exception of a mid-bass hump that really, frankly, is not too bad and certainly doesn't *sound* it"
Since you have the measurement, it would be good if you would show the measurement and the measurement conditions and details.
:)
I do measurements with pink noise & a Rat Shack meter with adjustments made for its non-linearities. It is good enough; it easily reveals speakers with marked frequency response aberrations (i.e., the vast majority of widebander or widebander-based speakers which have not just peaks but a progressively rising response and/or a big shelf in the 1.5-3K region - things that we *hear* quite readily).
The great thing about the Altec/GPA driver (with a good xover, that is) is that it doesn't suffer from such defects yet is still extremely efficient - an honest 100 dB/W with quite flat eight-ohm-nominal impedance.
Putting the driver on an OB doesn't affect that quality, of course. Below 100 Hz or so, the room has as much or more effect on response as the speaker. Then there is the floor-bounce effect. What do the spreadsheets say when these are taken into account? These speakers put out realistic amounts of presence region energy.
There is a reason why at least one well-known member here (who'd also owned lots of gear) used these very speakers (Altec 604s on JE Labs baffles) as a long-term reference, why Yamamoto sold essentially the same speaker, why the Quad 57 (nearly identical in shape and power response) is such a classic.
But, honestly, I'm not out to convince anyone of anything. I really do not care. But, as long as you do not display any serious and stubborn misunderstandings of the basics of acoustics and speaker design (such as not understanding that a compression driver with a horn on it doesn't radiate to the rear even if you take off the back of the speaker!) I'd be happy to have a conversation with you. :) (As my limited time allows.)
"(such as not understanding that a compression driver with a horn on it doesn't radiate to the rear even if you take off the back of the speaker!)"
Get a grip, I never stated that, if I did, you would have quoted it.
It was always about the bass.
△ᴉʇɐuᴉɯnllI oᴉpn∀△
Right! You talked about artificial ambience, which is clearly, absolutely, an aspect of *treble* when it is present.
(I do hope you have issues with guys who put rear tweeters on their speakers, such as Von Schweikert.)
As for the bass, that is, again, you pontificating about a speaker you've never heard and do not understand. You waded into a topic you have no experience with, stuck your foot in your mouth, yet are apparently unwilling to admit even the possibility that you might be wrong. Whatever.
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