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In Reply to: RE: where to buy more efficient 5" driver for book shelf speakers? posted by Kipp on June 24, 2015 at 06:56:44
(I'm one of the Bottlehead guys but I'll just talk about speakers here, OK?)
In the simplest analysis, to get the same bass extension the box internal volume is proportional to efficiency - that's why efficient speakers are so big. So substituting a more efficient speaker will leave you with less deep bass.
In the more complex analysis, each speaker has a limited range of box volumes that can be made to give a flat bass response, even if you accept a higher cutoff frequency as the price of greater efficiency. So for any given more-efficient speaker, you may or may not be able to get flat bass response.
I did a quick simulation as an example; it appears that you could use a Fostex FE126E and shorten the port to about 1" long. The bass will be a little lumpy but not terrible. Different speakers will give different answers though!
Hope that helps.
Follow Ups:
Bill, Paul (I recognized the name), and Dave: thanks.
I have to apologize- I discovered that the TAD 805 enclosure has a solid false bottom, and actual internal volumne is 959 cu in (0.55 cu ft, 15.7l). I'm guessing that effects your calculations, and if you had a moment to re-calculate, thad be awesome.
I noticed the FE126E, and also that it's rated at 93db! Would have to make an adapter to fit it since it's smaller. Also considering the Fostex BK12 complete speaker kit, but I believe the shape of the 805SD enclosure may be why I like it so much. Also Tang Band D4-1 kit looks interesting.
Bass response. I remember in the 70's visiting Pacific Stereo stores. Very large enclosures, and if ya wanted to go "first class", get the 5-way ones! Loud, powerful, thumping bass. ELECTRIC bass. Bass dominated the music, like Bob Marley, or some disco. Not interested in that.
Lately listening to a lot of 60's honky tonk- there's a lot of excellent, in-studio recorded stand-up bass. Charlie Louvin's "I'm No Longer in Your Heart" a really good example. Does not shake your pant legs or rattle the windows, but it does fill the air with beautiful harmonics. So smaller speakers may be fine for me. Also, I think most of the recorded music information is in an area that is way above the lower and way below the upper thresholds of hearing (especially mine).
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
Back loaded horns will sound quite different compared to sealed or ported boxes - in fact they are a taste I have not acquired, though sometimes the advantages outweigh the problems. Just a cautionary note.
Given the music mentioned - smaller scale acoustic - you might even be happy with your existing 87dB speakers, especially if you go for a 5-10 watt 300B amp. It at least allows you to make a valid comparison between amps, separated from comparing speakers. In a small room, I use 89dB speakers with a 2-watt amp for DVDs, and I always have tons of headroom available. (OK, in the big rig it's 101dB speakers and 8-watt amps ... I do like my Mahler!)
Paul:
I'm confused. On your main listening setup you are not using a back loaded horn? Sounds like you are using a SET amp using a 300B(?) I would have thought a 101 db speaker would be a back loaded horn. I'm always curious to know what setups work. Thanks again, Kip.....
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
JBL 2220 woofers, possibly the most efficient direct radiator available. 2440 compression drivers on top, crossed at 800Hz. Inappropriately small boxes which I got for free ... so I have 10" subs under the 15" woofer! Yeah, it's not the ne plus ultra but it makes music. Kind of a vintage-pro sound.
Yes, the amps are 300Bs - I often wind up with Bottlehead prototypes once things are in production.
> I did a quick simulation as an example; it appears that you could use a Fostex FE126E and shorten the port to about 1" long. The bass will be a little lumpy but not terrible. Different speakers will give different answers though!
There's also the matter of how low you need to go. If you're using a sub below 80Hz, for instance, then you don't need a driver that will give a 50Hz f3, you can use one that has higher sensitivity but only a 70Hz f3 and not be losing anything. It's when you want to go low with high sensitivity using a small box that you run up against the wall that is known as Hoffman's Iron Law.
Of course he would be making a very valuable speaker worthless. If he wants to use Fostex FE126E, he should build or buy a box that is made to work with it, IMO. If he sells the TADs, he will have more than enough to fund a pretty elaborate Fostex project. Madisound has a nice and reasonable priced kit with the FE126EN (see link).
Dave
Dave:
I hear ya. Actually considering getting that kit. $329! (don't know shipping cost yet though) If I didn't like them, I could give them to my daughter.
The mod to the TAD's would be reversible, so the mod would not ruin them. They are no longer available (that I'm aware of), and I can't imagine ever selling ever them.
The reason that I'm interested in modding the TAD's is that I believe the enclosure is significantly superior to typical box enclosures (or at least the ones I've owned). However, I have not heard the Fostex kit or owned a similar design.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
Given the quality of TAD drivers, it is hard to think that you could do better, even with careful research.
Dave
Dave:
I don't know. I don't know much about the speakers other than that I own them and that they are my favorites so far. A lot of things from China have little documentation or track record.
Linn Sondek LP-12, Lingo PSU, Ittok LVII arm, AT OC9ML cart, Audio Origami lead, scratch-built tube phono stage with separate power supply (design by inmate NAZ!), Cayin TA30 integrated tube amp (with Bizzy Bee mods), TAD (Bizzy Bee) 805SD speakers.
> > Given the quality of TAD drivers, it is hard to think that you could do better, even with careful research. < <
???
You do realize that these speakers aren't actually TAD/Pioneer ones, right?
Unless of course you're being sarcastic...in which case it's kinda funny.
No I did not. I looked them up and I see now that TAD stands for Tube Audio Design. My mistake. Comments were mixed, but I did not come away thinking that it would be a very impressive speaker, so hacking it up probably would not take much value away from a speaker that probably does not have much value to begin with.
However, the original poster likes the sound, so I still doubt that he could improve upon things by bolting a mismatched driver into a box. Since this is a crossoverless design, the interaction between the new driver and the "tweeter" could be bad or even damaging to the amp in a worst case scenario. I still think the Fostex kit would be the better option for someone who admittedly knows nothing about speakers.
I also like this DIY project using a Fostex FE103E and a Eminence Alpha 15A. (See link). It would also be easily adaptable to other full range drivers.
Dave
> > Given the quality of TAD drivers, it is hard to think that you could do better, even with careful research. < <
???
You do realize that these speakers aren't actually TAD/Pioneer ones, right?
Unless of course you're being sarcastic.
> > Given the quality of TAD drivers, it is hard to think that you could do better, even with careful research. < <
???
You do realize that these speakers aren't actually TAD/Pioneer ones, right?
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