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In Reply to: RE: Finally, a breath of fresh air. posted by Hornlover on March 12, 2015 at 09:21:36
One of my favorite topics! Unfortunately, I don't think dissenters have much of a chance when incredible sums of industry dollars depend on mental illusions. If someone thinks his system sounds better because of a $2,850 record clamp carved out of African ebony pulled out of the swamp, it does (to him).
Follow Ups:
You want to claim that because you can't hear something as subtle as a change in record clamp that someone else with more acute or better trained hearing than you cannot?
Perhaps you think everyone's hearing abilities and listening skills are equivalent...just like their abilities to run, swim play chess are the same??
Now you're getting ridiculous with a fallacious argument (and extrapolating in directions I never claimed). My argument is that if an individual can discern an improvement then who can argue that for that individual the result isn't an improvement (regardless whether there's a qualitative change).
I think the internet is to blame, with so much absolute bulls##t from 'experts'. Those with little real knowledge in electronics are the most likely to fall for utterly ridiculous claims. The latest I have seen is insulation color on wire being audible (watch how fast I get flamed for that!). I also remember one about someone putting clarinet bells around his room, and claiming amazing differences in the sound. Sigh...no wonder our hobby is going down the drain, with stupid claims, and ridiculous prices!
But I agree with your premises. So many folks in this hobby attribute phenomenal improvements in sound quality to devices and methods that simply could not do what they claim. And woe betide someone like you or me for bringing them to task for this.
If you spend time over on Tweaks, you'd be encouraged to believe that a lot of these guys have systems that actually sound better than the original source because they have invested an inordinate amount of time and money on myriad tweaks. And each one of those tweaks imparted a "jaw-dropping" improvement in the sound quality. As they say in Old Blighty "Give it a rest, luv!"
-RW-
Oh yes, the Tweaks forum...the real 'asylum' here. A place for the nut cases to gush incredible sonic improvements from waxing their nutsacks and patting each other on the back...
Like adding cork sheets to the inside of your wall outlet. Or taking out a 2" length of wire with black insulation, and trading one with white insulation, makes such a 'dramatic' difference...WTF?
'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. You'd be surprised how low that bar can be for some.
A number of quotes ranging from H.L. Mencken to Ben Franklin also come to mind.
Bill
Thanks for providing the laugh of the week after a bout with the flu! Awhile ago I read a book titled The 7 Laws of Magical Thinking by Matthew Hutson. From the title it sounds like a self help guide to lay some voodoo on your difficult boss, but it's really about the fact that magical thinking is the default mode for our animal brains, and it lurks just below the surface of our highly developed logical and scientific brains. A favorite anecdote involves the physicist Niels Bohr, who was a contemporary of Einstein on quantum physics, and was one of the few people who could go toe-to-toe with Einstein in a debate about quantum theory. Another scientist was once visiting Bohr, and while being shown around the property, he noticed a horseshoe which had been hung above the door of a shed, a typical country custom for good luck. He wryly pointed out to Bohr that this was un-scientific, and Bohr replied "I understand that it works even if you don't believe in it".
Reproduced music is an illusion, and sometimes it's hard to say just where Clarke's bar begins and ends.
Paul
...stand toe-to-toe on QM with Bohr.
They had 3 public disputes about it, all 'won' by Niels.
b.l.
I did'nt mean to take a side in the great debate, which spanned several years, nor cast aspersions on Bohr. There are anecdotes of everyday unscientific behavior by Einstein too. While most scientists would agree that Bohr won that debate, quantum mechanics is still not completely understood, and Einstein's ongoing critique was largely that it was an incomplete theory. Too bad the audiophile wire debate can't be tied up so neatly.
Paul
The 'audiophile wire debate' could be tied up quite nicely but some audiophiles appear to be impervious to the scientific method. They are taking the place of the roman inquisition while science takes the place of Galileo Galilei (again).
Once we get rid of the cable-believing flat earthers audiophilery might regain some of the status it once had and stop being the laughing stock it is now.
I think it' always been a laughingstock to some degree, both from within and without. The link below is to a Mad magazine hi fi parody from 1958, when I was 11 years old and my system was a Webcor Midgey record player. By the early 60's my dad had constructed his own tube powered horn stereo, and he had a hi fi club that met about once a month. There were intense debates at these meets about equipment and music, with humorous barbs being frequently exchanged. One of Art Dudley's articles in Stereophile awhile back had a cartoon wine snob tussling with a cartoon of the character from the movie Predator, with both of them sloshing their wine around. And it's slowly being eaten by home theater nowadays, where a narrow one-seat sweet spot does'nt work, and the "absolute sound" reference is an Imax movie theater and not an orchestral concert hall.
Paul
That Mad piece meshes well with an old tutorial on 'How to become an Audiophile':
1. Cut a 1/2 inch hole in the bottom of a pants pocket.
2. Put the pants on.
3. Walk downtown to a toy store.
4. Buy a bag of marbles.
5. Pour the marbles into the pocket with the hole.
6. Start walking home.
7. When you've lost all of your marbles, congratulations! You are an Audiophile!
....it's worse. I saw a sire on the web that had several suggestions for tweaks to try, and they all ended with "...and see if you enjoy the music more" or something like this. One idea was to go around the listening room with a screwdriver and make sure all if the screws on the electrical outlet plates had their slots oriented in the horizontal position and you would "..see if you enjoy etc". If you eliminate Penn and Teller from the story, it's very unlikely that anyone could detect the difference in a controlled listening test. Now if you gave this guy with the tweak a lie detector test, it's plausible that he could pass it if he really believed it worked. Now if you gave the same guy another lie detector test while playing some music, then had him adjust all the slots, then gave him another test with the same music, it's plausible that he did enjoy the music more after performing this ritual. Now you might say "What if I rotate some of the screws when he's not looking, how come the guy can't tell?". Well it's simple, the guy never claimed he could hear the positions of the screws with a listening test, he claimed that he enjoyed the music more after he performed this ritual. There's a place for science here, but it's more in the realm of psychology than testing audio equipment. The placebo effect is real, has been extensively studied, and has shown to work at times even when the subject has been told of the placebo! Richard Feynman has said that there two things you have to remember with science: 1. You have to make sure that you are not fooling yourself; and 2. That you are easiest person to fool.
Paul
In the nursing field when placebos are given, the Lippincott manual states EMPHATICALLY that it is important the nurse believe the placebo given will work.
Positive thinking IS a force to be reckoned with and sometimes has determined whether a person lives or dies when faced with medical turmoil.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
There's a great deal more interest in the placebo effect in the medical field than in audio. I guess audio can't kill you outright, though it could bankrupt you, get you divorced, and then you might kill yourself. But a lack of medical insurance can do that too. On one hand in audio it's ignored by people who expect there's an audible difference in the position of the screw heads on outlet plates. On the other hand, any claimed audio effect that can't be explained with text book electrical theory is blamed on the placebo effect, which is also largely ignored by some of the same theorists as they believe they're immune to it.
Paul
eliminate the ego and you will find yourself"... Eastern Philosophy.
have been around long enough to know that hubris/ego/pride IS the underlying reason for so much pain and strife on this big blue marble.
and now the United states Army War college statement takes on an entirely different interpretation.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Here's the latest 'tweak'. For only 1,200 Euro's! At that price, it has to work, right?
"On the other hand, any claimed audio effect that can't be explained with text book electrical theory is blamed on the placebo effect, which is also largely ignored by some of the same theorists as they believe they're immune to it."
There's more to it than that. Money is involved, and when a person spends money, they expect results - GOOD results - and are NOT going to accept BAD results.
Yes, a lot of money is involved, and people spending this money expect verification that it is well spent. This could likely start with a rave review in TAS. The reviewer and a friend could expect to be treated to a luxury dinner by the manufacturer, where the bill topped $800 for the appetizer and wine before the manufacturer's rep even arrived. The rep's corporate credit card may only go to $800, so he would have to pay the difference of the final $1500 tab with his personal credit card (a true story from Critics Corner here involving TAS's HP). Some reviewers could expect to have the review sample long term, as long as he needed, even 10 years or till his death. Some reviewers don't own any of the equipment in their system, or very little, it's all stuff sent to them for review. A rarely seen statement nowadays is: "I liked it so much I bought the review sample" (this would have indicated a rave review back in the days of Stereo Review). If you can't understand what you are supposed to be appreciating from the all too frequently mediocre sound from the over priced equipment which is the norm nowadays, the critics will help you understand what you are missing with esoteric concepts like PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing). Ethan Weiner, in the video at the beginning of this thread, pointed out that these terms already have musical meanings, and it would seem that they are characteristics of the performance rather than the reproduction equipment. In the hardware realm one would expect them to refer to time domain effects such as wow and flutter in the analogue domain, and jitter in the digital. Instead PRaT seems to be increasingly associated with a tendency for musical involvement or "toe tapping quality", which could mean a tilt towards the bass usually accompanied by a treble peak for "presence" as J.G. Holt observed rave speaker reviews usually had way back in '94. It seemed that the idea of an absolute sound reference with no colorations had gone out the window even by then. And what about the "sound stage" (the localization of the various instruments in the orchestra)? One critic in Stereophile was surprised that a live symphony orchestra did'nt image all that well from the not-so great seats compared to the seats he was used to getting as comps as a reviewer. So if you buy a recommended components system, the only reason to attend a live concert is to verify that your system sounds better than the actual absolute sound. I've heard speakers in the $30,000 range by Magico and Sonus Faber (in a well treated audio salon) which had narrow one seat sweet spots, where half of a symphony orchestra disappeared if you moved one seat to the right or left from the center. Would a live orchestra do this? Some Focal speakers in $20,000 range in the same room at another date did'nt do this, and they sounded better in my opinion. Due to the price differential I'm sure I'm in the minority in this regard. Audio equipment has two functions: the first is their obvious purpose to play music; the second is more of a jewelry function, which is to impress people. You don't have to look too hard for the placebo effect in audio, it starts with the price tag.
Paul
'You don't have to look too hard for the placebo effect in audio, it starts with the price tag.'
So very true!
> Money is involved, and when a person spends money, they expect results - GOOD results - and are NOT going to accept BAD results.
Of course, expectation bias will cause them to experience good results, whether they exist or not. The might even think that bad results are actually good results. Exotic cables with very high capacitance and/or inductance that cause high frequency losses are one example.
Very true. If there is really an audible difference, is it for the better (more accurate) or worse. Any change is usually touted as being 'better', whether it really is or not.
NOBODY is ever immune from placebo effect and expectation bias.
Indeed those who think they are immune are actually more easily fooled by them.
Greasing my nutsack with coconut oil increased my enjoyment of the music.
Tom Danley has told the story on this forum of putting the final touches on a mix, and finally noticing that the EQ bypass button had been pressed on the console, and the controls he was carefully adjusting were doing nothing. Everyone who has fooled around with audio stuff has stories like this, if they don't then they have'nt fooled around enough. Back in the late 70's I had a 4 track Teac R2R, and I later got a 2 chan. MXR noise reduction unit. I soon realized I needed another MXR, and I also finally got a third one too just to avoid constantly re-doing all the patch cords. These units had a trimmer pot controlling the output level on the back, which you adjusted with a screw driver. While fine tuning the output of the 3rd unit to one of the others with a stereo music source, I only noticed after some degree of fiddling that I was turning the pot on the wrong one! I had to put color coded tape on the front and back of each unit. Lessons like this are invaluable, as you have to constantly be on guard to not fool yourself, and that reproduced audio is an illusion, with you being the illusionist.
I'm slightly allergic to coconut, so I'll have to take your word on that tweak.
Paul
If you liked the Clarke reference you'll love this:
The Hitler clip was funny too. I also watched the one where Hitler is talking to his IP helpline, it mirrored my own experiences. I studied German in college, but I had to cover up the subtitles just to hear the German! I would fall for Poppy Crum's demo of satanic verses in Led Zep lyrics again, even after already having seen it.
The whole wire thing tends to bring out strong emotions in audio people as seen in this thread. I've heard differences in the sound of some interconnects and speaker wires, but they are rather subtle differences, and only meaningful in the context of fine tuning a system. Awhile ago a friend invited me over to hear the differences in some power cords in his direct radiator SS rig. I walked in to it being very skeptical. There were 3 cords demonstrated. I insisted on using the same piece of music: Stravinsky's Fireworks (a 3 min. piece for orchestra on Merc. Liv. Pres. CD) played at exactly the same volume. This is the only way IMHO to test for differences in sound of various things. I could'nt see the cords, and they were swapped in out of my sight too. After the music concluded we discussed the impressions, which we generally agreed on. The first one seemed rather uninteresting compared to the other two, it did'nt sound bad but it seemed to lack dynamics. Of the two remaining ones, the second one sounded better than the first, while the third one was also better than the first, but it sounded brighter than the others. I told my friend that I would prefer the third one on his rig, but would like the second one on my big horn rig. He said "That's what I though you'd say".
Finally the cords were revealed. The first on was an under $10 cheapie. The second one was a computer power cord, well under $20 as I recall. The 3rd bright one was an audiophile cord for about $30. Once again the differences were rather subtle and not apparent during all parts of the music. In particular the bright cord would not have stood out unless there was some high frequency stuff going on in the music, and this Stravinsky piece is notable for very quiet passages alternating with very dynamic peaks. I made the claim that with a slight volume increase I could make the cheapie sound better than the others, and this was not challenged. If a switching box had been used, and recordings my friend and I were not familiar with were played, I don't think we could have identified the cords.
So it all depends where you want to set the bar, and where you would relegate something to not being worth fussing over because life is too short. On one extreme end of the wire debate there are people who can't solder, and believe that the equipment can only be modified from the outside with wires and tweaks (but would'nt own anything with tone controls). On the other extreme there are those who insist that wires cannot effect the sound in the audio range, so they won't spend 20 min. to try it, but they don't mind writing thousands of words on one of these forums spanning several years saying that it can't make a difference. And there's everything in between too.
Paul
Funny how these tweaks seemingly always improve the sound.
If a tweak had negative results, I wouldn't bother to report it.
If a tweak perhaps is position sensitive, I do report my experimental results. Many would be tweakers neither have the time nor inclination to try out the permutations. Most seem to want a simple cut and dry statement of where to place things and what to do, and never really look at any possible science behind the tweaks.
Many consider the numbers affected too small to be discernable. One EE who heard what I was demoing said the rationale was not covered in his college texts so he did not believe it. Go figure...
everyone has his or her own reality
but you make your self look foolish in lumping me with ridiculous prices.
Black insulated wire costs no more than any other color. I picked up my bells from a music store repair shop going out of business. Net cost ZERO.
AS for the science, well that was explained long ago.
"The latest I have seen is insulation color on wire being audible (watch how fast I get flamed for that!). "
So Belden is wrong when they state that the CMRR of their twisted-pair wire differs with the color of the individual conductors?
IT can matter if other than twisted pair are used or if different colors have more or less twists.
IT can matter if other than twisted pair are used or if different colors have more or less twists.
Belden attributed the difference in CMRR to certain colors being microscopicly different in diameter, thus affecting the mutual coupling in the twist.The differnce was on the order of 2dB or so (IIRC), and the best they could twist the pair at that time was on the order of 66dB.
I don't generally freak out about balance/unbalanced, it doesn't matter in practice. Unbalanced with an input transformer outperforms electronically balanced, period.
Edits: 03/14/15
In the 90s I worked in a large data center were we ran about a mile of belden data twist a month terminating most of it by hand. Some of the pairs seemed twisted tighter than others. Some guys didn't pay attention to the pairing but it still worked.
testers measure unbelievable small differences. Even tensioning of wire bundles can affect impedances and the newer machines can actually pinpoint where the issue is. Sharp bends likewise affect signal transfer.
Much of this has become obsolete with the cheaper computer chips. The computers can correct the signal coming through the wire quite accurately, so that superior materials and construction is not as important as it used to be. Just send critical test signals down the cable and then the computer will correct for any anomalies
Just curious, do you recall the difference in diameters?
2 Db is not necessarily a small difference, particularly over longer distances.
IIRC, insulation is pulled over conductors by running them through a vat and through an over sized die. The size of the die regulates the diameter of the insulation as well as centers it.
Of course, a molten insulation means that a variation of insulation thickness is bound to occur, since the molten insulation has to be maintained within a critical range in order to flow smoothly. One would think that any unevenness would manifest in all colors, though.
In my experimentation, I have noticed, particularly in using a thermal stripper, the properties of different colored insulation is quite different from each other. Apparently the color dye lots has a greater affect than most of us would realize. Indeed if the insulation is stiffer, twisting would be more difficult.
I recall reading somewhere that insulation is usually extruded over the wire as the wire is pulled thru a die with the nominal diameter of the insulation. Because changing colors within one extruder is messy and wasteful, an extruder/die combination is devoted to one color or small group of colors. Insulation thickness variation results from the use of different dies for each color and the mfg variation inherent in the production of the dies. IOW, the insulation thickness variation is not directly related to color but is a result of production process variation in turn resulting from the decision to minimize color changes in the production equipment.
Looked for a link that references this but couldn't find it.
With today's capabilities, one would suspect fairly tight tolerances. You know CNC with laser cutting heads.
Insulation die tolerances should at least match the actual wire dies.
Still consider stranded copper. The distance between conductors will or should vary considerably. This would particularly be true with mixed gauge conductors (Kimber, Cardas).
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Although it started long before the internet.
I put the beginning of audio quackery to when Linn trained their salesforce to use underhand psychological tactics like tapping their toes only when a Linn product was playing.
"I put the beginning of audio quackery to when Linn trained their salesforce to use underhand psychological tactics like tapping their toes only when a Linn product was playing."
If this is true, shame on Linn...
-RW-
I got that from someone who went through Linn sales training back in the days.
He found that unethical and refused to carry Linn in his shop because of it.
Well, I still love my LP12, but come to think of it, one of the employees of the thrift store was tapping his feet when I snatched it of off the shelf ...
Dave
I feel that internet has only acted as a catalyst--the perception effects are timeless. The rest of the world (outside of audio) uses double-blind studies to ferret out placebo effects. The medical community was forced down this road to eliminate quackery (and loss of life). For some reason, in high-end audio, there are arguments against the scientific method. We embrace the illusion, and at least no one has died yet (but many are slightly poorer with wider grins for it).
Edits: 03/13/15 03/13/15
The medical community was forced down this road to eliminate quackery...
There are, however, significant differences between medical trials and audio trials:
1. In medicine the training, experience and test-taking abilities of the subjects do NOT affect the results of the test.
In audio they all DO. So it is as much of a test of the listeners than differences between the components alone. Harman, for example, trains their speaker evaluators who use the "shuffler". Follow Sean Olive's blog for details.
2. In medicine, the participants don't compare anything. There are administered either the the control or a placebo.
In audio, one must make a forced choice between two different DUT.
3. In medicine the tests have been scientifically validated for this use.
In blind audio component comparisons, there has been NO validation. The sensitivity of the tests for different sonic parameters has not been determined. That's because the sensitivity changes with each subject (see #1).
For some reason, in high-end audio, there are arguments against the scientific method.
Only to the application of pseudo-science. Lack of controls and myriad assumptions are regularly made with them. Such as the farcical Meyer-Moron test on audibility of high resolution recordings.
My friend,I have been using this exact same argument for years against those who claim to have finally had a " Breath of Fresh Air " after being exposed to the supposed "truth" about audio from one of the various naysayers out there who espouses what they already believe! The funny part is these folks who comment about finally obtaining a " Breath of Fresh Air" usually do so after being out on a country farm and opening their bedroom window ---{ which faces the pig farm next door }--- first thing in the morning! So with their window wide open they take a deep breath of that clean country air! Which unbeknownst to them has passed through and over the numerous pig stys next door before reaching the window of their country farm! While this air definitely has the fragrance of country air, fresh ---{ or truthful }--- it is not!
You might enjoy reading my original post about audio vs medical DBTs posted here in A.A. 7 years ago! There's even a link within this post which goes back further in my debate about this topic! Again BRAVO E-stat my friend, for your post...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Edits: 03/18/15
I leveraged a lot of comments that Mike Kuller has previously posted about the topic.
In any event, medical tests bear little resemblance to that of audio tests. I see that The Audio Hobby pestered your post. I also had some hilarious exchanges with him. :)
Hello Again!
Although I cannot say for sure, it's quite possible I also garnered some ideas from Mike Kuller while stockpiling info about Audio vs Medical DBTs. I do remember doing quite a bit of research at that time before posting. In any event it's good to see you representing the truth about Audio DBTs here!
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
All worthy points...of course there are listener differences, I'd hope these factors could be controlled for, if desired. That said, we can't assume that every individual difference is a material difference--many experiments show this isn't the case, (I don't think that anyone would argue that all perceived differences are material). Only speaking for myself, I want to ensure I have procedures in place with my own system to ferret out material differences from illusions. I've experienced both.
I'd hope these factors could be controlled for, if desired.
Agreed. Unfortunately, you rarely find studies where that is done.
I don't think that anyone would argue that all perceived differences are material.
Such depends on the listener. What one person finds barely noticeable could be more significant to another.
That they exist is sometimes actually questioned. And ridiculed, for some odd reason.
Thanks for pointing out those differences...your case is well made.
I come professionally from the PHarma industry and I also get annoyed when people in audio try to claim its the same as clinical trials for medicine...it is absolutely false.
There are arguments against the scientific method because it doesn't correlate with the wild claims:)
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