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In Reply to: RE: Horn Shoppe Horns posted by 1973shovel on January 30, 2015 at 13:28:44
1973shovel,
Many thanks for the informative reply.
Our "problem" is seeming breakup at crescendos or loud passages involving violins, trumpets, most woodwinds, female voices (both solos and chorus) and male chorus. The strings, brass and 'winds are piercing as in having a wire inserted in one ear and pulled out the other. Female voices and male choruses have a "gargle" quality.
Mid-range to ~50Hz are superb, about the best we've heard at this price level. Bass drums have both whack and boom. Tympani likewise. Organ notes can be felt. Celli & basses have a rich bloom about them & I can hear the basses dig really deep. Soundstage, making allowances for my room, is impressive and stable, as is imaging.
The Horns have the Fostex FE126En upgrade. We have no problem driving the Horns to really loud levels. The Truth replaced an Eastern Electric Mini Max preamp. We have the same issues, pluses and minuses using it. We did find that the rectifier tube made a hug difference in soundstage and imaging. We use a Tung Sol 6x4 very happily...
I think our next step will probably be the Heils, when we get the $$$...
Follow Ups:
I have the Hornshoppe Great Heiled Horns. I really liked the Hornshoppe Horns when I got them, but when I added the Heils I realized that they were a game changer. I recently took the Heils off my Hornshoppe Horns and tried them on my Tekton M-Lore's (which I thought were OK as a second speaker set)and they totally transformed them. That is the combo I am listening to now. I love the Heil's!! One thing I noticed with both combinations is that the efficiency increased.
While I listen to a lot of different genres, one of my top priorities in a speaker is that it is able to handle "large" works (orchestra, big band, opera, etc) without "breaking up". Lots of otherwise fine sounding speakers turn ever-so-briefly into mush on transients. In the earlyish days of digital, I used a Telarc recording of Mahler 1 (St Louis/Slatkin) to audition speakers; quick dynamics that a lot of speakers didn't do well.
But, everybody listens differently; what makes me grind my teeth doesn't bother (most?) others.
I have heard single drivers that can do it, but they're typically too expensive for me or too difficult for my DIY woodworking non-skills. I ended up with 2-way, then 3-way DIY JBL based with Edgar tractrix salad bowl horns. The xovers are my compromise. No individual genre sounds "stunning", but every genre sounds very good or better. And instrument tonality is right (my #1 priority).
The best sounding full rangers I have heard were bigger and had a "helper" tweeter on top. Often just crossed over with a simple cap in the region where the full range rolls off. To me, an xover way up there isn't nearly as noticed.
Good luck!
"The strings, brass and 'winds are piercing as in having a wire inserted in one ear and pulled out the other. Female voices and male choruses have a "gargle" quality."
Wire through the ear. Ouch! I don't perceive any of those displeasures, even at reasonably high volume. Of course, as a Classical music aficionado, you could argue that all Rock music sounds like wire inserted in the ears, but that's another topic for another time.
You don't mention if you've tried other amps. Have you eliminated a clipping F1 (was yours updated to the J?) as the cause of the piercing and gargling? If not, I'd try a more powerful amp, to see if the breaking up continues at high volumes.
I'm not trying to sound like a Horn Shoppe fan-boy, who believes that it couldn't possibly be the Horns causing your issues. They aren't perfect. But, as you said, at their price level (and often above) they don't often disappoint me.
Back to the First Watt F1 for a moment. Do you use any type of damping material in the Horn's throat? When I first visited the Schilling compound to demo the Horns, Ed hooked up about five different amps to let me hear how they sounded with each one. One of them was his F1. He had two rolled up towels, and stuffed one up each little bottom of the Horns, but only when the F1 was used.
I fell in love with the Horns and and ordered a pair during that visit. I also went on a quest to find a used F1 for sale, and eventually bought #26 of 101 F1 models Pass built. When the First Watt is in the system I have to stuff the Horn throat too, mostly to control the bottom. I use Acousta-Stuf polyfill from Parts Express. I've forgotten to remove it when I switch to one of my tube amps, and think there's something wrong with the amp, until I remember the Horn stuffing. I know it's not the bottom you're concerned with, but mention all that just as an FYI if you haven't tried it.
The Heils have been a temptation for me as well, but I've hesitated for a couple of reasons. One is the cost, as you mentioned. Second is that it turns the Horns into a two-way, which creates a problem using my F1J. I'm told there's a work-around that Nelson Pass developed in crossover design, but it's another complication. The third reason was Ed. Have you read about the DIY subwoofer he came up with? If not, see the link below. I already have one of Ed's "Cube" subs, but don't use it when running the F1J amp. Ed cuts his own financial throat by telling everyone not to buy his Cube, because the DIY sub is better. I mentioned to Ed that I was considering a pair of Heils, which he would make a profit on, and he told me to build the Bucket sub instead. More bang for the buck, was his assessment. That's why I like the guy. He's too honest for his own good.
I've done some rambling here, but hopefully it will give you a few things to try, or at least think about. Again, good luck, and if you do make some changes, even if it's dumping The Horns for a speaker you like better, please post your results.
Thanks guys, for the comments! Two things..... the series xover used with the Horn/Heils will work with any amp including the F1 or F1J.
The FFRS Mark 4:20i (The Bucket Sub)is a gift to the DIY crowd. Bruce Rozenblit measured it and included it on his DIY speaker page. You can find the page and read it if you wish, it's not hard to find. It is not a joke any more than a massive heart attack is. That said, if you do not build it EXACTLY as described and use it without a proper amp please do not whine like a school girl that you wasted a hundred bucks and a couple hours.
Built properly it is mind bending. Why anyone would not follow the insanely simple directions EXACTLY is a mystery to me but alas (sigh) it has been done. Use a Crown XLS series amp. Other big plate amps will work but the Crowns are perfect and not really expensive, all things considered.
Ed
1973shovel,> Amps tried: ACA, Will Vincent Dynaco ST-70 (triode), "vintage" B&K ST140. At 70 watts/side the B&K is the most "powerful". All had the same effect.
> I bought the F1 used (Terry Cain, RIP) after Mr. Pass offered upgrades. It's stock MOSFET...
> Polyfill up the rear of the Horns.
Two other suspects I've not yet addressed:
> Very few of our CDs are new. Many are from the '90s and new ones are usually reissues of highly reviewed, highly regarded, familiar works.
> The average age of our ears is 74...Ed, not being a classical fan but, indeed, a class guy said to send him a few examples of my problem. We'll see...
Listened last night to various piano trios. Some wine. Some weed. Low lights. Gorgeous sounds...
Edits: 01/31/15 01/31/15
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