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In Reply to: RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong? posted by ElWoodrow on December 15, 2014 at 12:43:01
I think many expect too much from a huge compromise. Full ranges are at there best in proper cabinets these are mostly very large the transducers doing allot and should not be a place for budget cost cutting. I feel proper full range designs are simple in concept but complex and costly in implementation or they sound fairly harsh and weak. Pic is AER in 2 way and Fostex fe208e sigma in 160lb BLH.
Follow Ups:
Seems this is a basic tenet of single-driver implementation. Above all, in my experience, they take a great deal of commitment. They will often reward that same commitment, done right, with moments of sonic ecstasy.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Jusbe you couldn't be more mistaken. The proper broadband driver installed in the proper, BLH and I prefer double-BLH, will reward the owner with hours and hours, not moments of sonic ecstasy!
How many speakers do you know of can play Guinnevere by Crosby, Stills & Nash at lower SPLs with all the inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre and yet also be able to play Perpetual Change by Yes at 100dB+ SPLs with that same inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre plus with huge dynamics and lightning fast transients, without any " Lowther Shout " or sense of driver strain?
Best part is these type speakers are often 95dB+ sensitive, so they can play with the finest SET designs which makes for an even greater connection with the music. My Sachikos loaded with Dayton PS220-8 drivers that have a $400 cone treatment applied, easily play from 40Hz to 13Khz by themselves. I allow the PS220-8's to play " fullrange. " I then add ---{ in parallel }--- a pair of Fostex T900a super-tweeters that are crossed in at 10Khz and play to their fullest extension of 38Khz. Which provides a total of 40Hz to 38Khz frequency coverage!
I also allow anyone who wants to hear this for themselves to come over for a listening session. All anyone needs to do is give a day's notice ---{ if possible }--- so I can send them my phone # and address. The people who come to hear these speakers in my system are usually taken quite a bit aback by what they hear! They always end up wanting to play another CD they've brought and what's supposed to be a 1-2 hr. listening session often turns to a 3-5+ hr. listening session. These are hardly speakers that provide only moments of sonic ecstasy, I'm sure they'll provide years of it!
I'm listening to: Beneath the Veil of Winter's Face by Mystery
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
But am always happy to learn! My comments were aimed at those who would use wide-band drivers in small enclosures, which I think was alluded to in the OP.
I've had wide-band drivers before (AER, Fostex 208ES, Fertin field coil) so I'm not without experience in this space. Have also owned Hedlund BLHs too (used with the AER drivers) and have 5 volumes of BLH designs for Fostex drivers. I know what they can sound like, even if I don't use any currently (but have a pair of Isophon Orchesters waiting patiently on a shelf).
I maintain it still takes dedication to get it right - and more often than not, wide-band drivers will inevitably need augmenting at either end of the normal listening range - and need cabinets/mounting with particular care to adequately demonstrate their inherent strengths.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
Hello again Jusbe!
Well obviously if the OP was attempting to get a broadband driver or wide-range driver ---{ which is a much more correct description than fullrange driver }--- to sound good in a small enclosure that was his first mistake and I told him that when I posted: people who complain about how poorly wide-range drivers sound have NOT heard a quality wide-range driver setup properly in the correct enclosure for the driver chosen!
My friend uses two pairs of Hedlund horns. One pair runs a pair of Lowther DX4 fullrange and the other pair runs a pair of Fostex SLE20W, alnico, edgeless woofers that were also used as woofers in Fostex's own GZ1001 ribbon speakers, as pseudo-subwoofers or helper woofers if you prefer! These Hedlunds sound very good indeed and were the actual catalyst that prompted me to try my hand with broadband drivers. But as good as those Hedlund/Lowthers sound they don't hold a candle to the Sachiko/Dayton combo.
I envy your owning a pair of Fertin field coils drivers. I've heard a lot of great things about them. I had never heard those Isophon Orchesters, that you own, but they look very interesting. If you have them in the original cabinets they came in you're way ahead of the game because you won't have to research locating the correct type of cabinet and then the correct size of that type of cabinet for the Isophon Orchesters drivers! I'm amazed you can let them sit around and not use them. I wouldn't have that level of restraint!
I agree with your assessment that using broadband drivers requires dedication to get it just right. I think a lot of what passes as being wide-range drivers are IMHO actually just midrange drivers with a larger than average frequency range. As much as I enjoyed the sound of my original Sachiko/Fostex FE206e combination had I not continued tweaking with types of stuffing materials, amount of those stuffing materials behind the driver, different broadband drivers and cone treatments, I would never have ended up with the type of stuffing, the amount of stuffing, the Dayton PS220-8 drivers and the cone treatment I use today. Although many of the correct tweaks for the Sachiko cabinets were discovered within the first 18 months of my present 8 year journey down the broadband driver path of audio. Discovering the best sounding driver & cone treatment for the Sachikos took traveling almost 6.5 to 7 years down that same path. Had I not had the dedication and determination to get it right as you said, I would have never taken the sound quality up to the level it's at now!
I'm genuinely sorry I'm so far from you, but if you ever visit Orlando for a vacation, send me an email and I'll have you over! I think you are one of the ones who'd really enjoy what you'd hear...
I'm listening to: Polosur by Marcelo Aedo
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
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