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Going to take a look at 1981 vintage La Scalas, with the Bob Crites upgraded AA crossover. I have a room which is 30 x 14 with an 8 foot ceiling, acoustic tile ceiling and carpet floor. Would put the speakers on one of the short ends. The price is not a bargain, but at the same time doesn't seem out of line. The speakers would fit nicely on either side of my 120" screen, with a bit of room to spare.
I can't seem to find (online) a good frequency response plot for the La Scalas, and reviews seem to be very polarized ( love 'em or hate 'em) I am hoping to be in the former category!
Follow Ups:
La Scalas Update:
I thought I should come back here some months later, and do a follow up. I picked up the La Scalas back in December.
At first I was using them with a low powered 2A3 amplifier, and the sound was amazing, but had some limitations.
Now, I have them with my 75W tube amplifier... and basically I don't see any point in upgrading my stereo anymore. I know probably things can be improved somehow, but it's just irrelevant. I can't believe how alive music of all descriptions sounds through the la scalas.. the treble is crisp and never fatiguing, and the mid horn gives music a sense of realism I have never heard at home. The bass section realistically conveys the sound and scale of percussion, bass guitar, and electronic bass in such a way you have to hear to describe. Stereo imaging is solid, and the system is extremely transparent. For example, listening to the Beatles, it's the first time Abbey Road has sounded patched together, rather than homogeneous... you can hear how and when the individual tracks blended together, and even tape hiss, and subtle volume changes.
I have them in the corners of the short wall of my living room (approx. 20' x 14'), with a slight toe in.
They are the size of washing machines, and they don't go extremely deep, but they're awesome, and I don't want to change a thing.. maybe some day I will, but not for now.
Oh - one minor annoyance. The speakers are so sensitive, that it made amplifier hum very obvious... so I spent a bunch of time with PSUD 2, and ordered a slew of electrolytic capacitors and a filter choke. Hopefully this cures the problem. If not it may be time to build a separate chassis for the power supply.
Hey Max,
Glad to hear you are loving the speakers. I agree with your observations.
Please don't wait two years to upgrade your mid horn, because when you do you will hit yourself in the head and say, "Doh, why did I wait so long!" You will find the increase in sound quality obvious, substantial, and well worth the money.
My guess would be that you like you PP amp better, because it has a better damping factor. The AA crossover you have has an irregular impedance, and is therefore not SET friendly. Upgrade to ALK xovers that have a flat resistive curve, and you will get fantastic bass out of your horns with a SET amp.
---------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Finally got some help to get the monsters to the basement, and set them up.
These are some very unique speakers!
First off the filament supply in my 2A3 amplifier is very inadequately filtered.
Second, they ROCK on two watts...
I noticed a wall clock apparently vibrates against the wall with some frequencies. Was never an issue with the tannoys!
Hooked up my old EICO signal generator. One speaker has some buzz in the cabinet which goes away when you put weight on top. I tightened all the screws around the horns, pulled off the bottom and tightened the woofer, then tightened the bottom. still there but not as strong - I think it's related somehow to the gasket being old.
Low end pretty solid to about 60Hz, much lower than that it dies.
The mid/tweeter combo to me sounds fantastic, I am absolutely sold on compression drivers!
"Second, they ROCK on two watts..."
Another convert.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I've been using LaScalas for the last 16 years, and I'm only 36.
In short, there's many things to hate about LaScalas, yet there's so many things that are "unique" at this price level (let's call it "entry level" as we're talking fully hornloaded 3 way speaker with 104dB sensitivity), so many things to like, that most folks prefer to upgrade or modify their LaScalas than going for something else.Mine were the "split" version, that is: bass cab and mid/high cab are two independant boxes, making mods easier (you just build a new cab for the new mid/high section).
What I did with mine:
-replace the stock K400 horn with EV SM120A horns. The stock K400 is way too beamy and honky (same problem as the klipschorn, but the latter somewhat makes use of that "beamyness" since it reduces reflections on the side walls when placed in a corner). The stock K55V driver screws on the EV horn with no adapter needed. only problem, the EV horn is wider than the LS bin. Very low WAF factor (except with some imagination).
-replace the stock x-over (mine were old "type AA") with ALK "Universal" network (he doesnt make them anymore, but you might be able to find them second hand, or to get the schematics somewhere). HUGE improvement over the "AA", maybe less so if you have the type "AL3" network installed. That said, the ALK network allows you to pad the midrange level up or down using different taps on the autoformer, wich is of GREAT help if you plan to try different midrange horns or drivers...
-replace the stock K77 tweeters (in fact EV T35) with Beyma CP25 tweeters. Most modern tweeters will sound better than the T35. Very very happy with the Beymas but I did have to install some L-Pads because they're more hot than the original T35, specially with the less lossy ALK networks. had to pad them down a little.
-remove the midrange drivers "bug screens". Only do so if you have the possibility to pad down the midrange. Removing the bug screen makes th drivers sound much better but it also makes them louder.
With a little care, I end up with a set of ultra high sensitivity speakers that didn't cost me much (you keep the original midrange drivers... finding drivers that are comfortable with a 6dB/oct 400Hz high-pass crossover is difficult, and expensive). They sound absolutely fantastic, I'm not afraid to say, much smoother and resolving and open than the originals, great imaging.
I use two subs, a 15inch and a 18inch, both using pro drivers. Doesnt integrate too bad with the bass horns as long as you keep the xover at around 50 or 60Hz, not higher.
Hope this helps.
For the record, there are some aftermarket midrange horns and tweeters that don't require a drastic modification of the LaScala enclosure.
Edits: 12/10/14 12/10/14
Thank you for the above story!
I think I will re-visit this thread in a year or two once I am familiar with the stock speakers, and am seeking a new level of performance.
Right now I am way too amazed at what front loaded horns do to be annoyed by or even notice their limitations or motivated to change any defects! I will however add mid horns to the list of things I am always on the lookout for a bargain on.
Plus the industrial history behind the T35 (being made for so darn long!) and the la scala itself are awesome. I like how the crossover is wired too, it's built like I was making it for myself, not like it had every last dollar designed out.
Going to go check them out tonight - here`s hoping for the best!
Thank you everyone for your contributions!
-Max
Edits: 12/09/14
Looking forward to your impressions.
E
T
The seller had a Harmon kardon Citation II and HK tube preamp hooked up to a Thorens.
It didn't take me very long to realize these speakers are apecial! These have the AA networks rebuilt with sonicaps.
I didn't notice the dispersion of either the mid not tweeter to be an issue, but I was right at the point of an equilateral triangle. Bass had an effortless quality to it which I am
Not familiar with. It doesn't go deep but it sounds very clean at all volume levels and sort of fast. I am sure this must be one reason people like horns.
Carrying them to the truck was a reminder of how huge these speakers are! It was like moving a pair of washing machines!
Anyway now that I have them I am going to re-read all the advice here, and keep my eyes open fo certain things. (Altec 311 horn maybe?)
The seller said these are from 1981, but mine have alnico magnet EV-T35s and the AA crossovers. Is this consistent with age?
I got home late last night and had no time to get them set u
Cool! Have fun with them. I always loved their look. Get a sealed powered sub that goes very low in frequency to pair with them. I always liked the Sunfire subs. Their new ones even have a mic and do eq correction based on the room. Not cheap though.
E
T
With the citation Ii powering then and sat in corners the bass was not particularly wanting. I guess it's a matter of expectations, I have a Triad powered sub for my home theatre (a 12 in a heavy sealed enclosure) which I will experiment with to add some output below 60Hz. One thing that struck me during the demonstration is these are very very aensitive to any hum from the power amplifier!
Scratching my head. I admit I am not necessarily a horn lover having used electrostats for most of my 50 years know the hobby. Have had a set of Cornwalls and more recently a set of Heresys IIs. When I finally gave up my last set of stats I was going to buy a sdy of LaScalas but got sidetracked and bout a set of Bozak Symphonys instead.
The Cornwalls impressed me and I regretted selling them after doing so. I picked up the HIIs about '89 to help out someone more than wanting them. Never got to a point where I liked them enough to keep them in system for any time but, enough not to quite give up on them. The lower end showed some of the same attributes that I experienced with my full range stats that even the Bozaks could not match.
Recently, I popped one, found a cap let go. I was finally preparing to sell them and had to decide to sell for cheap or repair. Got the Crites rebuild kits and his titanium tweeter diaphragms. At the time I thought the tweeter had gone out. I did the rebuilds and changed the diaphragms. Sadly, I did not test in between to see what made the difference. My original diaphragms tested good and within a couple of tenths of ohms between them. Also cleaned up the terrible driver to baffle gasketing that had large gaps so not doing any job.
Not sure what causes the most change. I suspect maybe by the time I got the speakers the caps were trashed though only about 5 years old. For a couple of hundreds dollars and a couple of hours work it was like buying a couple,etc of grand of new speakers. Mucb of what I liked about the stats, I am experiencing with the new HIIs.
I would suggest getting the LaScalas and loving with them for some time as they sit. Find an amp that does decently well with them and carefully log your likes and dislikes about them. You already have a good starting place if the drivers are original and with the Crites crossover's. Only then explore improving them but, go slowly. Klipsch heritage seems to love up to the report they had way back then, for the bucks you get good value and a solid foundation whereby for not a lot of money they can show significant improvement.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
"The Cornwalls impressed me"
This thread is all from the perspective of front loaded horn bass. I propose there is nothing else like it. Brian I hope you get a chance to hear it someday.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I have heard quite a number over the years. I was addressing the matter related to starring with a Klipsch vs going to a different brand of doing straight to diy. Klipsch presents a good entry level to the design and for whatever reason Paul left a lot of room for improving them. It might have been he decided a design to meet a specification should be a minimal to keep the price point low but allow improvements to whatever level of sound vs cost one wants. Other companies took this approach such as Bozak where you could order the Concert Grand cabinet with the component load of the 302a and then over time add drivers until you got the mix that sounded best or the cabinet was fully loaded. This would not be practical for a horn system so, It may be Paul took another approach to achieve the same result.
A good bass bin has the same practical limitation as the full range e'stat. It takes space for get low and I have only lived in a few places that could accommodate a system larger than the Bozak Symphony or 4 pair of KLH Nines.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada
Hi gang ... Lots of reading ahead on this long thread. Learning a lot. Wasn't sure where to post this (mod?), but this seemed as good as any. I'm currently making an unfinished copy of the LaScala bins as a retirement hobby.
Also working on a unique version of the Cornwalls. It duplicates Paul's original volume and porting. PM me with questions.Zene
Edits: 12/08/14
Hi Zene,
Love your bins! The braces help for sure.
John Inlow of Inlow sound is in Portland Oregon. That's pretty close to you all things considered. I think he sells his plans for like $25. You should build a pair of his straight mid/bass horns, if you haven't already.
Keep up the great work!
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Zene...those look really nice and solid, I never liked the
vibrating sides of the PWK version. You're a true craftsman,
can't wait to see pics of the Jensen BLH!.
M
how much?
"I have heard quite a number over the years. I was addressing the matter related to starring with a Klipsch vs going to a different brand of doing straight to diy."
I agree. It's how I got started in horns, and I still use them. What does that tell you? I am using my LS bins right this second.
For a long time (50 years) the folded W was state of the art. In the past five years I think it has been surpassed sonicaly. By straight m/b horns and maybe even PPSL. I want to see how djk's mod of flaring the slot works out.
Still if you want a m/b horn that fits into a space, 24"x24"24", then the LS is still the only game in town. Even after all these years. Okay, Bruce Edgar has a curved m/b horn too that goes to 400hz.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Because there isn't one! (rim shot) Just kidding but I always liked their look and punch more than their overall sound. They are efficient and easy to drive. So how much is not a bargain and not out of line if I may ask.
E
T
Edits: 12/06/14
So you like a 7 db peak at 140 Hz? The Peavey FH-1 is much smoother, cheaper, and more rugged.
I never owned them, just kinda liked them and as much for the neato cabnet. That should say enough. I don't even care much for very high dollar horns.
E
T
Me neither. I build my own or buy used. LaScala peak can be tamed with PEQ. It looks AND sounds great that way.
$1700 CDN is the asking price
I would probably offer a maximum of $1500
I am out of the city for the weekend, will respond to all the awesome feedback tomorrow evening
Here is a FR plot for the LS bass bin. It's the only one that matters as you are ditching everything else.
100hz to 400hz is what you get.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Well Max, have the numbers sobered you up?Fully front loaded horn speakers are so worth every penny, but when you sit down and total it all up, it does start to look daunting.
I hope this helped you some, and I hope it helped the reader.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 12/06/14 12/06/14
Jamie
Just wanted to thank you for all your insight into the speaker situation!
As you can see after research and consideration I did end up going with the la scalas. Why?
1. Price, it's an all in solution which doesn't need a ton of equipment. No shipping charges, no new electronics.. just the la scalas and that's it.
2. I absolutely loved them when I auditioned them. (definitely the most important reason!)
3. Plug and play... something is to be said for instant gratification.. my life is absolutely full of unfinished projects and deadlines, and I would kind of rather have the system up and running right away. Even my best intentions would result in listening to a finished system a year from now.
4. They were available. Here in the prairies of Western Canada, it's not every day something like La Scalas are offered. If I lived in a place like California I could be more choosey about what to buy... but to have a full blown full range high efficiency setup without paying for shipping is well worth it to me!
Hi Max,
Congratulations on your new speakers! Welcome to the real world of horns. You don't have to justify yourself to me. It's the most natural thing in the world to pick the fruit that is hanging closest to you.
You will have fun upgrading as you go. You will learn a lot, and when you think you have taken them as far as they can go, then you will be able to sell them for what you bought them for. Just make sure you save all the pieces in one place, including the screws.
Your description of Western Canada makes me think of some old SCTV skits, and not just the Great White North, but a few others too. "Let's go to the big city where there will be lots of doctoring jobs for you, and lots of lawyering jobs for me!"
No, the tweeters aren't original. My LSs are '77 and the had the ferrite tweets. The Alnico's are better.
Start saving your money for upgrades, or better yet, sell off your Push-Pull junk. :) You won't need them any more.
I would like to give you an update on my system. My active crossover died as soon as I put in those shunt regualted Paramounts I got. I inadvertently let them power on while the xover was off. Everybody tells me including Phil Marchand that it won't hurt the xover. Well, let's just say that's the exact moment it decided to die. Back to the mother-ship it goes.
Well, I had to do something to verify the amps were working, so I tore down my carefully constructed and carefully balanced system, so I could put an ALK extreme slope passive back in, just so I could test the amps. Been listening to them for three days. Kill me now.
We'll have plenty of time to talk crossovers. Now hook up that two watt amp!!!
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Hey Jamie!
I am out of town for an office Christmas party this weekend, wi-fi here is horrible! Not close to sober yet, thank you very much for all the advice! I have to say I am envisioning a setup with the two la scalas as mains, and an eventual addition of a SLPP subwoofer. At this point though I really just need to hear the speakers before I can do anything else. I am still holding out hope that the stock la scalas are going to do it for me.. Imperfect as they are it would be very simple to set them in the corners, connect the amplifier, and press play.
The base reflex loaded base is also rather attractive as a weekend project. But again it's all just talk until I hear the apeakers and decide if they're for me or not.
-Max
You WILL need subs with the LS. A good PPSL sub would mate very well.
Lover of Horns,
Yes, probably. I listen to a lot of Prog rock without a sub, and all the bass guitar comes through. The only thing that seems to be wrong is the kick drum, and that is not critical to me. Others will have a different situation.
PPSL or a Karlson sub maybe? I am going to try the PPSL for sure.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I have a friend who has Klipsch Belle, LaScala and Forte set ups in his living room. (Believe it or not, he is happily married).
Of the 3, I thought the Forte sounded the best. Comparatively, the LaScala was alarmingly weak in the bass. Seems like a lot of space for not much bass.
!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Often repeated, but fact-free (not true).1963
Paul Klipsch designs the La Scala speaker for the performing arts sector. Arkansas gubernatorial candidate Winthrop Rockefeller later uses it as a public address speaker.
Edits: 12/08/14
Cleanstream,
I know you don't want any advice from me, but would you be willing to have a fresh pair of ear/eyes look at your system?
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
dadbar,
"the LaScala was alarmingly weak in the bass. Seems like a lot of space for not much bass."
Everybody's system is different. If your friend is running a SET amp with the stock crossover, then he would get weak mushy bass. Hit it with the right damping factor, and look out!
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
4Pi speakers
Max,
I council patience.
If you buy a LS you will junk everything but the bass bin, that includes the Crites crossovers, which aren't so much an improvement, as just not old and dried up. Any folded W horn will work. Keep an eye out for the Peavey FH-1. You have the room, and they are better and cheaper.
If you make the wrong decision with horns, then you are not only stuck with an expensive mistake, you are also stuck with a large, heavy mistake as well.
We could sit down on this forum and sketch out many horn systems before you ever spend a dollar. I have used the LS bins as the basis of four different 2 and 3 way horn sytstems, and I am working on my fifth.
This doesn't even take into account straight front loaded mid/bass horns, down-firing m/b horns, J horns, or PPSLs.
I'd say a top-notch 3 way horn system is a minimum of $3,500 US, and that's with getting the LS bins cheap.
To tide you over, I suggest beginning by bi-amping your Tannoy S6. Put your PP on the bass driver, and the SET on the tweeter.
Don't take cash with you when you go look at the LS. Look, listen, and think.
BTW, the first amp I used on my stock LS was a 30 watt PSE-UL KT88. That's before I knew what 30 watts would do on 104db speakers. I put on an Al Hurt album. It sounded like that trumpet was blowing in my living room, and I don't mean that in a good way. It chased me out of the room!
I'll give you one closing thought:
To paraphrase Winston Spencer Churchill, "Horn speakers are the worst speakers in the world, except for everything else."
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
THat is why I went with two-way full horn Odeons that I listened the hell out of them before buying because I didn't want an Albatross around the neck if they didn't work out!
I glad you got the speakers you like.
What is the efficiency of the back loaded bass horns of your Odeons?
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
They are around 98db/watt
Hi morricab,
I would like use your speakers as an example. I'm not explaining it to you, as I know you already know this.
morricab's back loaded bass horn is 98db efficient. That is high efficiency is most people's book.
It is six db less efficient than the LS bass bin. That means the LS only needs one quarter the power to reach the same SPL as morricab's bin. That is, the LS can hit 98db spl with 250mw.
Let's take the Inlow Sound straight m/b horns. 110db efficient. That's a difference of 12db. That's one sixteenth the power requirement as morricab's speakers. The means the Inlow horn can hit 98db spl with 68mw. Yes, that is sixty eight milliwatts. And morricabs bass bin is a very efficient driver to compare against. Just think what those guys go through with 92db speakers. They need big amps.
Why does this high efficiecny matter? Lots of reasons. Two being, diaphragms don't have to move much, so you get low distortion. Also, and as important, it turns a 45 or 2A3 SET amp from an unusable curiosity, into a real power amplifier that provides all the drive you need and more. I have run my LS with a passive crossover on a 1626 Darling amp that put out 750mw. It was more power than I needed. I had loads of headroom. I could play the music loud as hell if I wanted to.
That's why.
I say if your really want to hear the full effect of a SET amp, you have to hear them on fully front loaded horn speakers. My two cents.
morricab I would really like to hear your system. I know I would like it.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Hey Jamie,
Now you have me second guessing myself! Are the la scalas really that bad? The polarization of opinions online made me want to hear them, I haven't pushed "go" yet, but I figured a product which has been made more or less continuously for 51 years has to have some serious merit to it. Your experience though is direct and personal so I should give it some attention.
I like how the la scalas offer a more or less plug and play setup which doesn't need Biamplificafion of active crossovers. I was planning on showing up cash in hand though (every evening listening now I wonder how it would all be with better speakers ! ) and you tempered my enthusiasm a little with a dose of reality.
What would be a decent basic high efficiency setup in your opinion ?
My goal is basically for it to sound just like my tannoys do when powered by the 2A3 but with the ability to be louder. Better than the tannoys would of course be awesome. They do not sound nearly as good with my other (push pull) amplifiers.
-Max
!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
True. I never consider K-horns because I don't have any good corners.
But then there's the price, and you are still stuck replacing the mid horn, driver, and crossover.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Mr. Steady wrote: "Horn bass will smoke a sub-nt"
I do have good corners and walls specially strengthened for bass corner horns. I owned and used the bass bins of a pair of K-horns for four or five years under Oris 150 horns driven by AER-MD3s and Fostex t900a bullet tweeters. I was quite unhappy with the bass because it began sharply rolling off by the mid 30s Hz. My dissatisfaction was probably a result of enjoying true 20Hz bass extension for at least 17 or 18 years before the K-horns.
When horn bass does not sound better than sub bass is when the sub is horn loaded also. I settled on a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice HT Tuba 1/8th wave bass corner horn subs. I like them very much. I cross them over at 160 Hz with a roll off of 96 dB/octave. The crossover as well as many other functions is handled by a DEQX HDP-3. Without the DSP and the very steep slope the high crossover frequency would probably be a problem.
I sacrifice 5 or 6 dB of sensitivity which makes it possible to do only subtractive EQ (no bass boosts) and extend the bass response down to 20 HZ in my room. Sensitivity is still in the 96 or 97 dB/w/m range which is adequate for my modest needs.
"Mr. Steady wrote: "Horn bass will smoke a sub-nt"
Hi Don. No, I didn't write that. Cleanstream wrote that. I can't say that because I haven't done enough investigations into subs.
I love the way your system sounds. For a long time I had thought of adding the BF HT Tuba Low Profile version. I was going to fire it upwards because I have 18' ceilings. Now I'm thinking PPSL might be the way to go. Three things going for it. It is high efficiency at 104db, just the same as the LS bins, it has a bottom exhaust vent, so it's a near field sub, so to speak. I have a feeling the HT Tuba LP firing up would have a different sound/effect. Third, you can physicaly align the drivers with the driver of say your straight mid/bass horn. I like that.
Want to see the grand-daddy sub bass horn? Check out the Spiral Bass Super horn thread.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Mr. Steady, I apologize for my confusion. I have splendid excuses, but I'll not bore you with them.
Thank for the compliment on my idea for my speaker system. If you are ever in the vicinity of Atlanta or Chattanooga I would love to have you drop by and see if they sound up to their description. After ten years of tweaking and refining my speakers it is only this year that they have finally come to sound as I felt they should.
Don,
"I have splendid excuses"
Think nothing of it!
I would love to hear your system, and thanks for the invite. I'll keep it tucked away. I also have been redesigning my LS for ten years, so I know what exactly what you mean. Just as important, now I know what to listen for.
Take care,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
... that needed all drivers replaced in order to sound good. If I had to do that, I'd be looking for empty cabinets at a discount.
The horn loaded woofer design is not for the carpenter faint of heart...hideously complex...precise DOES count. The Horn is excellent on it's own but I use JBL 2360 horns and 2445.drivers in a two way configuration.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
True.Hence the original suggestion of finding some Peavey FH-1 bins, or Inlow Sound straight horns. The OP is looking at paying top dollar for mid/bass bins.
OTOH, Bob can get a pretty good deal on m/b horns.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 12/06/14
Max,
I have the day off, and I'm working on my system, so I'm in a horn mood today.
I know some of our friends in Britain and Canada may think it crass to talk about money, but I need a budget. Please give me a hypothetical budget, and let me amuse myself setting up a system for you.
Also, the LS's you are looking at. Are they black or do they have wood veneer? What is the asking price?
Reply if you dare.
rws, are you in the game?
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
It's only crass to talk about money when it isn't relevant. (And yea I am the type of Canadian who will become offended if someone directly asks my income!)The la scalas are black and the guy is asking $1700 CDN. I figure this is a touch high and would try an negotiate a bit. Klipsch heritage speakers don't grow on trees around here so factor that in, scarcity drives up the price a bit versus big city USA.
Am looking to get up and running around the $2k mark. Not set in stone, would prefer it be cheaper but I don't want a revolving door of speakers, so more expensive is also possible . Would prefer to not go active crossover and have a ton of amps, but the subwoofer mentioned above (SLPP) looks like a super option for a later date addition to the aetup.
I should add - that building cabinets or DIY crossovers or electronics are PERFECTLY FINE, what I don't want to do though is engineer a set of speakers from scratch - speaker companies go through so many iterations and permutations and have fantastic measurement equipment and design talent which I have no access to. The reason I want something off the shelf is not that I am afraid of or incapable of DIY, it's that I want a finish product which is optimized.
Edits: 12/05/14
!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
Just this one picture.
This horn is a game changer. What the horn world needs now is one like this that is a 200hz horn.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
John must have recently updated his site with build pictures. I'm telling you, a game changer.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Two more,
Talk to EduardG, and see what he can come up with for $2K. Check out his down-firing m/b horn.
Back to the PPSLs. I may have to modify that to a three way, using an Inlow Sound 135hz horn for mids, with a 1" picking up at 1K to 1.2Khz. Let's add $450 to the price of 12" or go 15", and say total price of $3,300. I think that is the minimum to use PPSL as your bass bins. Still keep in mind they take the place of two subwoofers, and their amp.
One other benefit of the PPSL, straight horns, and Unity. You can physicaly align the drivers. With folded horns like the LS or K horn, the alignment is off 3 1/2' to 5'(?). FWIW.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Don't sweat starting from scratch. If you buy LS's you'll be starting from scratch. Please bear in mind $2K gets you a starter fully horn loaded system, and they all have compromises.
I'm giving you these recommendations based on your room size, your budget, and your skill level. I will try to think of one that meets your budget, but the ones I like at a minimum blow your budget some.
At a minimum with the LS. You would have to buy a pair of better mid horns with a 15/16" throat, okay 1" with an adapter. Minimum of $700. That's $2,400 and blows your budget. At least you would already have a Crites crossover. BTW, not a bad system. In fact, a good system, but I can do better that that. It does have the advantage of being a three-way system.
Let's start with a plug and play; The Yorkville U15 or U215. A Danley Unity style horn system. Has a built-in passive, that can also be switched to an active two way system. I looked for the pictures of the crossover network that used to be posted on the web, but it is gone. That is the most over-engineered, high part count, crossover I have ever seen. You would need your PP amps to power that darn thing.
A digression into passive vs active; If you buy and use an ALK passive crossover then you will have the option, no the requirement, to adjust the gain of the mid driver and the tweeter driver. This passive xover will be living in the top cab of your LS. It is a dark, cramped, dusty, unhappy place. You will be inserting one arm, one shoulder, and your head into this unhappy place to adjust your settings. Conversly, you could have gain knobs on the front of your component rack, and twiddle away. Which sounds easier to you? BTW, Marchand is running a special on a two way FET xover for $550. That's cheaper than the crappiest Chinese tube amp on the planet. Heck Marchand publishes all his schematics, build one. His PPXLO too. The software to calculate the values is free. One more thing, two amps is a ton of amps? Add a sub, and you going up the three amps. The do start to add up! :)
Cheapest new price for the YV Unity horns is $2,200 for the pair. Just over you budget. Putting the Unity horn on top of a LS bin, and not using it's woofer would kick ass I bet. See, that would be $3,900.
Okay, how about a couple fun ones from scratch?
An Inlow sound unfinished 100hz straight mid/bass horn for $500 a piece. You add a B&C 12PE32, and fill the holes, sand it, and finish it.
Any number of candidates for nice mid horns that go to 500hz, and lots of drivers too. That would be an extended discussion, and I have my favorites. Call it $700 for the horns, and $550 for the drivers. That's $2,250.
Another option, PPSL bass bins. Probably 10" but maybe 12". Please check out Wavebox by Les Hudson. Maybe $1,200 to $1,600 per pair? I know the price for the 12" is $800. Same tweet as above, so call it $2,450 to 2,850. This option would have a very wide bandwidth, and you could forgo a subwoofer or two, so factor that into the price.
Two way horn systems are a compromise, and you pay a sonic penalty for them, but they are an acceptable starter system. If you have a fear of analog EQ, then you might want to loose that too. For the two-ways, a second order BW passive crossover would be simple to design, build, or buy.
That's all I got!
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
"I should add - that building cabinets or DIY crossovers or electronics are PERFECTLY FINE, what I don't want to do though is engineer a set of speakers from scratch - speaker companies go through so many iterations and permutations and have fantastic measurement equipment and design talent which I have no access to. The reason I want something off the shelf is not that I am afraid of or incapable of DIY, it's that I want a finish product which is optimized. "
One of the things I find interesting about horns is, that they are compartmentalized, and you can swap different units in and out, and it is very easy to adjust your system with gain knobs, and different slopes and xover points, if you are using active xovers.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Max,
No, they are not bad. They are freaking awesome! Once you hear and have a front loaded mid/bass horn, you will never want to go back to anything else.
Yes, with a few upgrades to the LS, you could have a bad-ass horn system, but you have a nice big room. A long room. For the same money you could have a no-compromise horn system. Why not?
I say, let me draw out the system I would build if I had your room, and I was starting fresh. You may find it interesting.
If you buy the LS or any horn system you will go down the modification path. I don't see anyway around it. Except maybe buy a $100K Avantgarde system, and then they aren't worth it. If you play with horns, you will go active. Passive xovers work best with direct radiators, that's why people don't want to leave them. It's all they know. Horns are different. And to my mind a hybrid three way of spliting the low/mids with active and the mids/highs by passive is a really great solution, but not the best. It cerainly is easy to do. ALK makes two way high level xovers that are made to accept a signal from an active unit.
Hope this helps,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Hi maxhifi,
I saw the same ad and was mildly interested as I am only 2-3 hours away. we must be fairly close to each other, I am northern MN.
I have never heard of Bob Crites, The speakers need a little TLC.
Bob
Hey Bob
Different La Scalas, am not anywhere near to you geographically.
In other words, we are not competing... go get those ones and we can compare notes :)
-Max
Max,
Yes, I realized where you are, I would have waited until you were finished if we were close. I have always had a interest in La Scalas, tell me more about Crites. I have CF 3's for now.
Bob
rws,Sorry didn't mean to leave you out. The same goes for you.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 12/04/14
no problem, I did not feel left out. I am only mildly interested, but after reading the posts it makes me wonder about the LS. The ones I saw are listed on ebay.
Bob
Bob,
Cool. Chime in if you have any questions.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Give me your thoughts on these. The price looks reasonable but I don't like the chips in the veneer. Does the high freq. driver look correct?
Bob
Hi Bob,
They are all original except for the crossover. Only the cigarette burn on the top bothered me. If you wanted to haggle by dropping the bread, then I would say $900 cash and carry them away.
If you want more advice than that you should give your longterm budget, and a description of your listening area. All the upgrades don't have to be done in one go. Like I told Max, the speaker is compartmentalized.
Hope this helps,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
My listening room is about 12x20 partially open on one side. I am in between amps but am headed towards SET, Decwware, Coincident, or
Wright Audio. I would need to reconfigure the space.
Thanks Bob
budget?
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
probably not more than 2k
One last thing about upgrading the midhorn of a Klipsch Heritage speaker. I recommended horns with a 1" throat as a cost saving measure.
IMHO, a long mid horn with a 15/16" throat is 100 year old technology. I think Holland and Newell are right. A horn that can stay 12"-15" long will sound the best. You can get the horn shorter many ways, but I think the best way is to use a driver with a larger mouth.
IOW, to upgrade these LS, I think you should spend the money to upgrade the mid horn and the mid driver. Factor in an additional $1,500 onto your purchase price.
Hope this helps someone,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Many choices,
LS for $900
Edgar style rectangular horn 1" throat; $465 pair
Eliptical tractrix 1" throat, $695 pair
Round fiberglass tractrix $580 pair (Requires driver upgrade)
Mid driver upgrade, $800
Better first order passive crossover $320
Better second order passive xover $730
Best, Marchand three way FET active xover, $750
Mix and match them.
$1950 will get you the bins, an eliptical 300hz tractrix horn with 1" throat adapter, and a first order xover. The ALK Universal will allow you to listen with SET, the Crites won't.
The Yorkville Unitys are only $2,200 and they are a huge leap forward. They just would need bi-amping, and they don't have front horn loaded bass. They do crossover to the mid horn at 300hz.
I think the straight m/b horn combo was something like $2,300.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
buy a set of EV DH1506 these drivers can replace the stock Klipsch neo drivers in your CF3 they simply eat the stock drivers in every way. With some additional work your CF3 will amaze you. Don't know if you are aware but the CF3 is a lot more power hungry than the published data would suggest and they respond very well to power. a pair of really solid stereo blocks 50 - 100 watts per channel vertical biamp ad you will be AMAZED. Best regards Moray James.
moray james
Hi Moray,
Yes, I had heard that the CF-3's are more like 96db rather than the stated 100db. I was planning on using SET 8 wpc and some others here thought I would be ok, any thoughts? I kind of intrigued by SET right now
Bob
I have had folks say they were pleased with small amps on the CF3, I did run my 2A3 SET on them and it was good but no like running larger amps so it will fall on you to decide. Your small SET would be fine to drive the horns and some SS power for the woofers in a bi amp situation would be interesting to hear. You have lots of options and they don't have to cost a lot. Start with what you have and see what you think. Best regards Moray James.
moray james
Hi Moray,
For the past month I've been thinking about pinging you. It's been a long time since we had an installment of; Moray's current system. A little bird told me you might be listening to J horns. :)
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
no horns have traded horns for Karlson K-Tubes with double cutaway. Best regards Moray James.
moray james
I say give them a listen. You're right, some love them and some hate them. (I've owned a pair for many years)
My understanding is:
Bob Crites set out to bring old crossovers back up to spec, perhaps using similar or better parts. He was not setting out to 'improve' the design per se'.
Al Klappenberger on the other hand, set out to improve the design itself and has various crossover designs, including some with extreme slopes (which I now have in my LaScalas)
I feel the LaScala can be a fine starting point. I'll admit that I've come to learn the HF section can now be easily bested. I've kept my two LaScalas with their stock drivers but my third LaScala (center channel) will have a 2" throat horn on top (K510) and will be taken down to a 2-way speaker with an active crossover. All of that has been engineered by Klipsch.
Since my 3rd LaScala was bought as an empty box, I'm taking it where I want it to be rather than re-formatting it.
Good luck in your journey.
Ka-yo-te,
In your opinion what is the upper usable, sound good, frequency of the LS bin?
I've been running my Faital Pro HF-204 on a 2" Jabo horn at 440hz. I just ordered an xover module of 500hz 24db slope, so I guess I'll find out.
I agree the LS is the best way to get started in horns.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
What's the uppoer useful limit? The quick answer is "I don't know" (I'm not very technical with this stuff)
What I DO know is with my center channel (JubeScala which is the LaScala bass bin mated with the Klipsch K510 horn / K69 driver (2") on top and is actively crossed) is crossed at 420Hz on the bass bin and 470 on the K510. I don't know how that relates to the acoustic crossover point. If it matters, the crossover points I'm using are Linkwitz/Reiley (sp?) 24db.
Coytee,
Sorry, I always thought it was Coyotee.
Thanks for the breakdown of your crossover points. The xover I use has variable damping, so it can be anything like BW, LR, and the others. That's why I didn't give it a designation.
J
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Heh...no problems. My wife usually calls me "JA" which is short for Jack A..
:)
See link - no personal experience but read good things online
The LaScala is solid to 80 - 90Hz and going away fast at 50Hz. You can build a reflex loaded riser for them which gets the mid horn centred on your ears when seated and with a couple of 4 inch ID by 7 inch long vents you can drop the low end into the mid to low 30 Hz. range. Of course you open the access way to couple the riser section. YOU screw the risers in place and seal them for air leaks. If you don't like what you hear take them off and re install your doghouse door. You don't need much material or time to build a test set of risers. You may still like to have a sub for the last octave.
If you install the speakers on the long wall you will get better results if that arrangement works for you. Hope this is of interest.Best regards Moray James.
I believe that DJK is the man responsible for the LaScala riser mod so he would be your go to guy for info. There have been many users build the riser mod at the Klipsch site don't believe I have seen one negative review over a lot of years. All the info for the mod is in the archives at the Klipsch forum.
moray james
Hi Moray,
Thank you for your response! I was actually reading about the riser mod at the attached link just before I read your message, and it looks like an absolutely decent project. I really like that it is a reversible non invasive mod, I hate cutting into cabinets! The room configuration is more or less fixed. I can't see myself getting a sub unless it's a huge horn loaded ordeal, which is tube powered.
Best Regards
Max
Have fun-
it sounds like a great fit for the room-
What sort of AMP will you be using?
I have a few I want to try
1. Single ended triode (2A3) with EF37A driver and Sowter output transformer (self made)
2. RCA MI-12188a mono amplifiers (push pull parallel 807)
3. 75W Priboi amplofier (made in USSR)
4. Dynaco ST-70
Naturally the motivation behind the interest in the la scalas is amplifier 1. But I am curious how they will sound with 75W of tube power too!
I can see myself becoming obsessed with ridding my amplifiers of hum I didn't even know existed with such a sensitive speaker connected!
With any luck it won't be bad.
Right now I am using a home brew RH84 on my 101db 604E.
The only time I hear a little hum is when the PS caps are charging when first switched on, after that they are silent.
I primarily use digital as a source as these are also my "computer" speakers, in the past I had hum issues with different amps and inefficient speakers, caused by ground loops with the computer etc.
This is easily mitigated by using an optical link to external DAC.
Those speakers look like fun, enjoy.
My systems are all analog and all tubes. Hum is more or less a non issue with the Priboi and the Dynaco amplifiers, but the SET and the RCA's may need a little tune up. Going to go see the speakers on Monday, I am excited about this!
maxhifi,
I would stat from scratch and put the money into a better performing horn system as others have mentioned.
I would go for the Inlow 80hz or 100hz mid bass horn to start with as that is the key piece IMHO, get the mid bass horn wrong and your system will never sound proper.
Give look at DIY Sound Group for a good midrange horn / waveguide and purchase a pair if good compression drivers and you are close to home. When you have some extra cash grab a nice pair of Fostex tweeters and you are very close to done. Perhaps some time in the future you could add a pair of tapped horns or PPSL for bass and have a great high performance system.
The best part is you can buy your system piece by piece as you can afford to. Good luck.
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