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In Reply to: RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project posted by Joseph Crowe on November 04, 2014 at 08:26:08
That's a purdee-looking speaker.I don't want to rain on your parade, 'cause you're obviously passionate about doing this and you want great sound quality, but...
The girl you want might not be the girl you should marry.
If you want great sound quality (the definition of which varies from person to person), you really gotta go to a 3-way, or maybe even a 4-way.
All these "full-range" people are in denial. Inevitably, they add a woofer and a tweeter - which makes it a three or four way speaker!
I've not seen a 15" woofer which does 800 Hz well, in a domestic environment. They can 'work' in studio control rooms, where there's a limited and specific horizontal listening area, the room is fairly 'dead', and early reflections are properly controlled. I've also not seen a compression driver which does both 800 Hz and 18,000 Hz well.
If you are hell-bent on a 2-way, go to a 10" or 12" woofer, to gain greater dispersion and a better match to the "HF" horn's dispersion.
That's all I've got for now.
:)
P.S.: Yes, yes, the old Altec 19 and such sounded great in their day and within a certain listening area and especially in a room with the curtains, carpeting, and over-stuffed furniture of the day.
A 15" has very limited dispersion at 800 Hz.
On the other hand, some people here call me a troll. THW them. LOL:)
Edits: 11/06/14Follow Ups:
"A 15" has very limited dispersion at 800 Hz."Yes, limited to 90° or so.
A two-way crossed at 800hz to a 90° horn will work well, but have a touch of FMD (gargle) if you play program material with deep bass (and anything with midrange at the same time).
The link goes to a 12" two-way with a sub, this would be what I would do(but with a PPSL for the sub).
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Note: I did the network design and provided the drivers for the tops in the auction. They measure about ±1dB from 100hz to 1.2Khz, and ±2dB out to 16Khz. John was locked in for the 2245 for the sub, otherwise he may have gone PPSL for the sub.
Edits: 11/13/14
Thanks to all that provided feedback. The JBL looks interesting. Here is a comment from the literature on the pi speaker's website. "The JBL 2226 can be used for such an implementation. One look at the response curve of a JBL 2226 shows that it generates very little output above 1.6kHz, and the speaker sounds clean up through the midrange. So a tweeter circuit that is designed to bring it online between 1kHz and 2.0kHz blends very well with these woofers – even with no woofer crossover at all. However, it is also evident that there is a slight increase in output just below upper cutoff, and this is reduced by adding inductance to the system."
The increase in output is on axis only.
Putting an aperature plate in front of the driver (like the newer Eon series) makes it sound much better for a higher crossover point. Years ago I did this with a simple piece of cardboard in front of the driver with a rougn opening of about 80 square inches with the long axis in the vertical (to maximize horizontal dispersion).
I think your comment of: " All these "full-range" people are in denial. Inevitably, they add a woofer and a tweeter - which makes it a three or four way speaker! " is way off base! I'm one of these " full-range " people as you refer to me, but I'm not in denial at all.
First I know there's no such thing as a " full-range " driver. IMHO not even the Quad or any other ESL speaker is " full-range " these are all extremely " wide-range " drivers, not " full-range " drivers.
Second I suppose in the strictest sense of the word adding any additional drivers makes a speaker a 2, 3 or even 4-way speaker. But I've never seen anyone with a set of 2-way monitors add a subwoofer to their system and then refer to their speakers as 3-ways, have you? So if that's case why would or should someone who's using extremely " wide-range " drivers have to call their speakers 2-ways for adding a subwoofer to cover all frequencies 100Hz and below? What's the difference?
Third I use Dayton PS220-8 extremely " wide-range " drivers with Rispoli-treated cones in Sachiko double-back-loaded horns. These easily cover from 40Hz to 10Khz+ " as-is ". I added a pair of Fostex T900a super-tweeters at 10Khz and up to add that last little bit of sparkle & shimmer to cymbals etc. and I'll be adding a subwoofer to cover from either 100Hz or 80Hz and below sometime next year. If you want to refer to them as 3-way speakers I have absolutely no problem with that, just as long as you keep it real & honest with yourself and refer to anyone using 2-way monitors with subs as 3-ways etc. You see I'm not in denial or de-Mississippi or any other river. I and everyone I know that uses extremely " wide-range " drivers knows what they are. You cannot blame those of us who use these drivers because the manufactures and dealers who sell them refer to them as " full-range " drivers. We all know they're actually only extremely " wide-range " drivers. That's precisely why many of as super-tweeters above 10Khz and subs below 100Hz!
I'm listening to: Seven Bridges by Tim Timmermans
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.
"I've not seen a 15" woofer which does 800 Hz well, in a domestic environment."
I don't agree.
I live with a 15" driver that goes up to 1200hz that sounds sublime. (Jensen P15ll)... w a very simple crossover.
And what do you think ALL 15" DC Tannoys are doing? Most of the ones I know about are crossing over at 1000hz. Not many people are complaining about their Tannoys not having appropriate dispersion in their homes...including Jim Smith.
Well, that's specifically what I'm worried about and thanks for bringing it up. I have the Altec 416-8C with new GPA cones (they are my brother's). They don't sound good at all playing in the range where I want them, hence the question. The only driver I've heard play well into this range is the B&C 15cx40 coaxial on an open baffle. Now it has a 3" voice coil with edge wound aluminum wire, and so this is why I'm looking at something similar from B&C (15CL76). What's your thoughts on a High BL 12" in a small sealed enclosure complimented by a 15" Dayton Audio Subwoofer with huge xmax and low FS?
I would go with a good 15" on the bottom, but would put a 6-8" or so in between it and the compression driver. Cross the 15 at a couple hundred Hz or so, run the 6" up to maybe 2K, and let the compression take over from there on up. Obviously, this is a general idea, not a specific design, but it will result in better sound and more uniform dispersion than a 2-way 15" with a compression driver.
:)
If you cross a 15" at 900Hz to a compression driver you get uniform, controlled dispersion from over an octave lower than in your 3way example.
The price you pay for this improved dispersion is increased IMD below 900Hz.
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