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No time or room for anything elaborate, just something that will integrate well.
Have a rather good SUB amp with phase/equalization capability, so just need one decent sub-woofer that will add an octave from about 100Hz down to 50Hz.
Don't need to wake the neighbors, just need a bit of decent sound in that range that will integrate well with Edgar Titan II's.
Follow Ups:
how about a spiral horn, surface mounted to ceiling? They can take up a lot of area but not very deep. ( < 12") The key is to have it be horn-loaded, regular sealed/ported subs are easy but getting a well integrated, low-freq. horn sub is not easy.
My solution for bass to match my mid bass horns was a pair of tapped horns using the 12" Definimax woofer. Absolutely seamless, powerful, but musical bass. Tall at about 7 ft but only about 14" square. Simulation done by JLH. Layout and construction by me.
Regards,
Jim
That's actually an excellent driver. I use a pair per side for mid-bass.
A sub-woofer driver, however, it is not. Ultimately though, the only thing that matters is that you are pleased with the sound quality.
The pictured wine glass is a nice touch; I usually use a beer bottle (for scale). And, as usual, your craftsmanship is superb.
The best for me was two karlsons modified as subs following the John Tucker recipe. They integrate perfectly and give me that extra octave nicely. A single one between the speakers could work well if space is an issue.
Which drivers did you use and how low did they go?
Thanks
Altec 416.
Contrary to popular belief the quality of the amp is very important. And the crossover as well. I used a McIntosh Mc275 for a long time. It was bested by a Bedini 25. Class A is class A. I use a Marchand passive (4th order 80hz) driven by a SET amp (the marchand impedance is very low -130hz- iirc).
They go low enough for me. At least an octave under the Edgar midbasses.
I got to ~22Hz support in my front room with 416 tuned with two 3"ID elbows - great on theater organ. A Karlsonator15 should be an interesting option - ask XRK971 at Diyaudio to simulate one with aKaBaK
Karlson Evangelist
Edits: 11/06/14
Hi Ivan,
Hey, if ya got room for a 15 then ya got room for an 18. $120. How wrong could you go? I'm not saying play it loud. Just let it move the air you need moved. I think you would get less distortion.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I know you're thinking big, but you're describing desired in-room behavior
that sounds a lot like my Po' Lil' Thangz (which barely drop below 100).
We've had really good luck with a gutted REL Strata III utilizing a
properly-designed outboard amp (SA1000).
Certainly not as bad-assed as the monster in the attic of the Garden
of Earthly Delights, but it does take care of business in my room.
If you don't become the ocean, you'll be seasick every day.
—Leonard Cohen
bass horn would match best then you can ditch the sub
Kloss that sub is attractive.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Not that there is room for it even then....
Nah, talked to Bruce over a decade ago about a seismic sub. Heard his horn sub as well as Steve Shell's (Cogent) horn sub as well. Of course they sound great but...
There is hardly any room for Edgar horns as it is, but I somehow managed. I think a small sub will have to do.
I have tossed around the idea of building a bass born in the attic or basement, opening in the ceiling / floor
I'll likely retire and move, so I don't think I ever will
Below would be in the bedroom. =:-0
Listening room is in a loft with a 12 foot center ceiling but sloping down to 3 feet at the side of the room where the TV/Audio Equipment/Speakers are located.
Same for the other side of the room with the listening chair/couch.
Good news is that the total distance wall-to-wall is 24 feet.
Door to deck to the left and open to living room/etc. below to the right.
Works surprisingly well with horns.
Maybe try 2 subs good luck.
That's where the double basses are. ;-)
I've been to many concerts in many cities and they don't all have the standard set up. It depends on the conductor, the music, the room and the orchestra.
the double basses are where ever I put the sub. ;-)
The double bass produces fundamentals down to about 40 Hz (open E string, IIRC), but it also produces significant overtones to well over 1000 Hz.Given that you'd be crossing over at approximately 100 Hz (at whatever slope), the sub will be producing harmonics well above 100 Hz - along with the main speakers producing them as well, producing an unnatural effect of hearing the double bass sometimes emanating from multiple locations. This effect will vary depending upon the notes being played, and may even produce a "swimming" effect.
If you wish to avoid this problem, you would do well to cross your new sub at about 50 Hz. With a 12 dB/octave slope, output will be down 12 dB by 100 Hz, thus avoiding the majority of hearing multiple sources. Whether or not your current speakers will provide enough output down to, say 70 Hz, to make this workable, I don't know. If you can cross at a faster slope, e.g., 18 or 24 dB/octave, then you can move the crossover frequency up a bit, but you still want that sub down by at least 12 dB by 100 Hz.
Alternatively, if you need to cross higher than about 50 Hz, get two subs and place them next to each of the main speakers. In either case, two subs will provide the best integration.
Another thought is, given the size of the LF horn of your Titan IIs, you might consider just replacing it (both of them) with a 12" or 15" driver in a direct radiator box of appropriate design (vented or sealed). This, of course, also depends on how high the current LF horn is being asked to go. But certainly, if it already contains a 15" driver, converting it to a direct radiator to gain more low end is clearly an option.
To Kyle's point about orchestra layouts: very true. Having played in orchestras and now playing in a wind symphony, I've experienced multiple layouts. Further, given that you're listening to music recorded over multiple decades, you'll find that preferred layouts have changed over the years.
For example, I've not seen an orchestra recently which places the first violins to the left of the conductor and the second violins to the right, although it was not uncommon in the mid-twentieth century. Certainly, there are all kinds of variations with regard to the woodwinds, and, depending on the conductor and the venue, the timpani can be anywhere from left to center to right. So, don't view the M-W dictionary diagram as a hard-and-fast rule - it's just one possibility.
:)
Edits: 11/04/14
"I've not seen an orchestra recently which places the first violins to the left of the conductor and the second violins to the right..."Quite common in Europe, and even in San Francisco when Herbert Blomstedt comes to town. I suspect it's because that's the seating for the Gewandhaus Orchestra of Leipzig.
Seem to recall the Berlin Philharmonic uses the 'firsts' on the left and the 'seconds' on the right. Been a while since I heard them live in Berlin (with Abado).
Edits: 11/04/14
I need to get to Europe again soon!
So, where does the conductor place the double basses and the timpani in those cases? ;)
:)
Looks like the timpani upper middle and percussion is upper left?
Do like firsts and seconds on either side of the conductor as you can really hear in interplay between sections much more clearly in some works.
Munich Philharmonic Orchestra with the basses on the left!
Edits: 11/04/14
THat orchestra is backwards!! I have been to a lot of concerts in Europe and never seen a setup like that.
What I want to know is: What the heck is going on there?! There's people playing, people yucking it up, people paying attention, a bassoon player scratching his nose, etc., when the conductor is on the podium!
That is the funniest photo of an orchestra that I've ever seen!
:)
Conductor: "How does it sound with the double basses on the left side?"
The crossover frequency of a filter is its -3db point.Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 11/04/14
Yes.
:)
I saw a Butter-worth simulation once, that indicated it's only 12 db/octave
grand total. In other words, the -3db does not get added.
So, 100 hz would be down 12 db. Not exactly sure, because for years I
thought it was 15 db like you posted.
I'm not a crossover guy, so with any luck some one else might chime in and set us straight on this topic.
You really should strive to go lower than 50hz. True sub response adds so much enjoyment to music listening, especially as far as sense of scale and room ambiance.
I agree. Getting down to 30 will add a lot to the sound. It really gives the foundation to an orchestra.
Email me at bruce.edgar@hotmail.com . I have a 15" in a 2cuft box solution for a sub. Ed can do the work under my direction. He is always interested in picking up some bucks for woodworking. Bruce
Perhaps Bruce will have some advice for you. I tried several approaches including a seismic and finally threw in the towel. My sense is that the tractrix makes it hard to do that "integrate well" part. By the end I had my left and right set just a few feet apart and still couldn't get there.
Hopefully you'll have better luck.
W
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