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In Reply to: RE: Down-Firing Straight Edgar Style Mid/Bass Horns posted by Mr_Steady on October 25, 2014 at 20:07:55
It's nice to see that my design ideas are still appreciated. The bottom exhaust design has been a staple of mine for years now with the slimline, slimline signature, horn sub, and the monolith, published in Speaker Builder. The bottom exhaust makes the horn into a near field speaker, a feature that allows even my horn sub to work in a normal sized room.
I have investigated the wave propagation aspects of the design and found out that that wave front loses coherance about 500-600 Hz which makes it easier to crossover to a mid above 600 Hz. I see Ed uses a 550 Hz tractrix horn of mine for the mid. We will need to get the system measured to see how well the blending works. I have suggested to Ed that we write a joint article on the design for Linear Audio. The editor has requested loudspeaker articles from me but I haven't been able to deliver because of health problems. This project would be a good start.
Bruce
Follow Ups:
Hi Dr. Bruce!
I was online and just came across this Tune Audio Anima . Looks like they're basing their design quite a bit on your slimline bottom firing horn design quite a bit for the basis of their Anima speaker. Guess you were doing something really right all these years, huh?
I'm listening to: from Me To You by Tom Coster
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Edits: 10/28/14 10/28/14
This bass contraption couldn't function as a horn because the bottom mouth appears way to small. Consider that the mouth of an 80Hz horn needs to be about 566 sq inches. If you look again at the picture in the first post of this thread you will see what such a mouth looks like.
Manufacturer's sepcs say 87cm x 87cm, which is roughly 34.2 inches. 34.2" x 34.2" = 1,169.64 sq. in., so it looks like there are good. The only question is, are the risers high enough?
Dave
Eduard,
Those are a good bit bigger than they seemed in the first photo I supplied. Hopefully this newer picture gives you a better idea of their actual size. I'm sure they'd probably like a sub added ---{ like the one behind them in this photo }--- but that said, for what it's worth. When Jonathan Valin, of The Absolute Sound heard them at the Munich High End Show, he wrote " the system sounded fantastic on concert grand - very natural with superb timbre and scale. It was also sensational on trumpet, choir, and organ ... indeed, these may be the best horn speaker I've ever heard! " James Palmer from HiFi Wigwam simply wrote on his show blog " Seriously amazing speakers" and 6moons stated " Tune Audio's Anima would be on the top of my list of hornspeakers to review. I still remember them that fondly from the 2011 show. The fact that their design remains unaltered suggests that on that count nothing has changed ".
As for me? I'd love to know how low, without the sub they can really go! Thanks for your input Eduard.
I'm listening to: Earthwalk by Max Lasser's Ark
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Hey Tom,Sorry I missed last night, couldn't be helped.
You found a great example lurking out there, thanks.
At a show I tagged up with a writer for an online mag. It was very interesting what he said in private, and how the show and vendors were covered in the article. And that was a reputable mag, not freaking Absolute Sound.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 10/31/14
Dear Tubeguy,
I can't argue the sonics for the simple reason that I never heard that system. If the system sounds great - great. But to the best of my knowledge nothing has changed in the laws of acoustics in the last 5775 years. The best guess that I can hazard is that the alleged bass horn of the system is working more like a vented box whereby the area at the bottom functions as the vent. It is certainly not a mouth of a horn.
Eduard I'll readily admit I'm very ignorant about building horns ---{ but I do love them }--- so I'll accept what you and Mr. Steady say without any argument. That said, I really like the looks of the Anima. My friend is restoring a pair of TAD 2001 drivers for me and I already own Fostex T900a tweeters and JBL 2241H 18" drivers. So in time I'll probably have someone build a pair of horns for me. If anyone would like to see my present dedicated audio room and audio system, click on the link below...
I'm listening to: Off The Beaten Path by Dotsero
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Criminy Tom!
You use a PP 845??!!?? I didn't know such a thing existed. I know your horns don't need that much HP.
Your horns a beutiful.
We are going to have to get you to try little amps young man.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Jamie,
The Mastersound is actually my 13 year old, 135lb, 40W/ch, PSET, integrated amp, imported from Italy! It really has to be heard to be believed. In fact I'd place it against any 2A3, 300B etc. SET out there! Oh and thanks for the compliments about my speakers. I had those custom made by the now defunct Cardersound. They're frugal-horn Sachikos wrapped in Rosewood veneer. In the 8 years I've owned them I've gone through Fostex FE206E, FE206ES-R, FE208ES-R, Lowther DX4 and the present and best Dayton PS220-8 with Rispoli-treated cones!
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Hey Tom,Oh, PSE, that's a relief. I'm sure they drive your Sachikos well. The Italians make superb amps. Harvey Rosenberg called them the Japanese of Europe, because they appreciate that which is old.
I'm surprised to hear you say a common Dayton beats the Fostex and Lowther. That's very cool. I couldn't find anything on Rispoli mods other than your posts. Is it like the EnABL mod, and have you ever tried that mod?
I hope I get to hear your set-up one day.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 11/05/14 11/05/14
Hi Jamie,
You're 100% correct the Italians make great audio components, but they should considering all the operas & symphonies they get to hear in Italy.
Mike Rispoli has a 7-step, proprietary cone treatment, that makes most every driver that's not plastic, metal, polypropylene, etc. sound drastically better after it's been applied. Mike won't give up a lot of what happens, but I know some of the steps treats the entire cone, while others are only applied to specific areas of the cone. I had the both the Fostex FE206E & FE206ES-R drivers treated and was very happy with the sonic improvements.
I didn't allow Mike to treat the Lowther DX4 or Fostex FE208ES-R cones because I needed to keep their resale value high ---{ in fact I sold the Fostex FE208ES-R drivers within 48 hrs of posting them }--- and since not many people know about Mike's treatment and how it improves the sound. For many having the treatment applied, devalues the drivers.
I live in Orlando, FL Jamie. If you're ever in the area let me know beforehand that you'll be around, and we'll setup a day and time for you to come over for an extended listening session, ok?
I'm listening to: Clear Approach by Trillion
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
Hi Tom,
Hope you are well. Sorry to hear of your recent amp troubles. I know you'll get it fixed. If I was there I would move if for you.
Thank you for the invite. I don't travel as much as I was five years ago, but you can be sure that if I'm in Orlando, I'll look you up.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Hi Ed,
Yes the risers are much shorter than yours. On the first picture you can see light coming from the back, so it doesn't have a closed back like yours. Also there is no wave guide at the bottom. That's three ways at least it differs. In fact the only thing the guy did was turn a straight horn on it's mouth, like I was suggesting a couple of posts ago, and I'm a very poor horn designer.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Who knows Mr Steady? They say great minds think alike! So maybe turning a straight horn on it's mouth, like you suggested a couple of posts ago, was really a great idea?!?
I'm listening to: Off The Beaten Path by Dotsero
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers
In Bruce Edgar I put my trust.
FSU is coming back. Will check back in.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
No wave guide at the bottom in a 75-80 hz horn would be of concern to me. I mean, you can get away with it (or without it) in a 35 hz subwoofer (still not recommended), but in a bass horn the back wave would be nasty.
Hi Ed,
What does the closed rear do for the horn? Is it correct to call it a baffle? What happens when you loose it, like this one did?
Was the only reason you made the rear of your horn straight sided was for ease of manufacture? There are three straight or nearly straight sides?
Thanks,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Technically, you can make the mouth open on all sides. But why would you want to do that? Why would you want to dissipate the sound wave to the back?
The back is indeed straight and flat. It is 1.5" (two layers of 3/4" Baltic birch) The sides are slightly curved and serve as a guide/jig for laminating the sides. I then measured the cross sections of the horn as it propagates downwards and drew a line connecting the dots. I then used a jigsaw to cut the sides along that line. Both sides then served as a guide/jig for the front. Sides and the front are more than 1" thick. With back being 1.5" and three sides being laminated from many layers of plywood, the whole structure is extremely rigid.
Hey Ed,
Thanks for the explanation of the back baffle and the waveguide. I didn't think about the wave bouncing back up.
Which made me wonder about something. The driver you use drops way off in response at 80hz. You could be doing that because of the way you want to cross it over. What I would like to know is; If you used a driver that tried to put out 60hz would the soundwave collapse at the mouth and head back up the throat, like you read a mid-horn doing?
Since the free space on three sides between the horn and the floor is the mouth of the horn, is it just a matter of making that area a little bigger? I know that's an oversimplification.
Thanks,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
It's not quite that simple. The length of the horn is determined by the ratio of the size of the throat to the mouth for a given low frequency response. While the size of the throat is less "scientific," the size of the mouth is calculated based on the desired low frequency response. So, in my case, the driver "falls way off" at 80Hz because it is a design parameter. You can't just say, oh, well, I'll make this mouth bigger or smaller or whatever without other parameters being affected. I mean, you can, by a little, say, in exchange for horn efficiency. But I wouldn't cut corners unless there was a compelling reason. Some of the wave will bounce back regardless of the low frequency response and the 45 degrees pyramid at the bottom is there to counteract that and guide the wave out. In a sub it really doesn't matter all that much, but in a mid bass horn it sure does.
Edits: 11/04/14 11/04/14
Ed,
Reading the linked thread made me think of the LaScala's frequency response. That's the picture. Not very pretty is it? I bet many people on this forum have seen better. Still it sounds damn fine. Plenty good enough for me.
I'm sure the horns you and Bruce voice sound plenty fine.
If we were still talking about this I would ask about the 10db peak mentioned in the link. I wonder how much of it is caused by the horn, and how much is caused by running the driver to it's Resonant Frequency?
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Goes to show that what makes us (well, some of us) like or dislike a particular speaker is not so much (or not necessarily) the linearity of the frequency response, but something else. And I don't want to get into the discussion of intrinsic sonic qualities of horns - that's beyond the stated topic. That's why I don't particularly like measuring speakers' responses (yes, some parameters such as the size of the back chamber has to be measured) but rely heavily on listening tests. And if there is a conflict between what I hear and what the measured data is telling me, my ears win.
Yes, the ear/brain is, or should be, the final arbiter of what sounds good. Just as the tongue/brain is the final arbiter as to whether your meal needs more salt.
Having said that, I still measured my bins, then applied EQ as best I could, and my ear/brain confirms that it does indeed sound better with the EQ.
Which is why I am interested in straight M/B horns. They seem to offer the possibility of excellent linearity, with no extra EQ necessary.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Another thread where Dr. Edgar talks mid/bass horns.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Hey Ed,
Was reading up a little on mid/bass horns and found the following on Romy's site. I decided not to edit it, save the profanity.
"First thing first: Bruce Edgar is the most prominent and the most knowledgeable horn designer and builder alive today, in fact he has been holding this title in my view during many-many years. In addition he does hear the things very well, has cultural and cognitive capacity to interpret properly what he hears - a very seldom quality among individuals who are trying to make acoustic systems. Furthermore, I consider Bruce as my friend, consult with him sometimes and even during my midbass project we spoke a few times and we collaborated on some issues that I had. So, it would be greatly inappropriate for me to criticize the Bruce’s 80Hz horn.
However, one of the keystones of this site is honesty and respect to the actual sonic results. From this perspective I do not feel that criticizing Bruce’s 80Hz horn I violate anything. If Bruce’s, your, mine and anybody else objective to advance horn sound instead of patronizing horn people then criticizing Bruce’s 80Hz horn will be a great respectful service to what Bruce taught all of us for years.
I do not like Bruce’s 80Hz horn. I heard it only once, I did not like it then but I even more do not like the design idea. 8-10 year back Bruce furnished his Titans with curved 80Hz horn, even that curved 80Hz horn had some problem it in my view was much more interestingly sounding horn. Then Bruce desired to bless the Morons with a straight horn – I think it was a disastrous move: the horn is too short with too large throat, and at least with drivers the Bruce use they shall sound in the way how you descrive.
The need to note that I used the word “Morons” in the last sentence very deliberately. There is Bruce and there are his customers. It was my vocal and persistent position over the years that Bruce Edgar’s customers in dominating majority are incredible idiots. Since I entered the horn field in 1999 I was dealing with them many times and I can testify that 95% of them are remarkable retards. I can publicize many events when I and the some “specific” Edgarhorns owners where involved and it will be absolutely self-evident how much Morons they are, the last even was 3 months back with a retard posted at AA under a moniker “Dan_ed”. The problem however is not only that I know it but that Bruce Edgar intelligent to know it as well. So, what Bruce doe it mitigate the design and implementation efforts in accordance with the level personal stupidity and sonic ignorance of his customers. I would do the very same in I were “in business”. So the short 80Hz straight horn was sort of Bruce’s Hoi Polloi horn for the Morons out there, sort of Bruce’s Volkswagen horn (I original meaning of Volkswagen).
So, I do think that you will be able to fix anything in the Edgar 80Hz straight horn. You can change driver, move Fs up and down, beef the enclosure with sand but it will be all half ass solutions. I personally did not play with this horn but in my view, looking at the short straight horn with huge throat I do not see a horn but rather I see a direct radiator shooting through a pipe. Many Edgarhorn users do “upgrade” of their Edgarhorn replacing the old curved Bruce’s horn to the new straight one, so you might pick up the old one that will be much better. Alternatively fine some kind of idiots who would buy this appendix horn and ask Bruce to make to you a properly horn if you will be able to accommodate it in your system. (I personally believe that you will not as I feel that 80Hz horn is too large to be located under MF channel). However, talking with Bruce you need to specify very precisely what you want. Bruce is not a fool and he very much sees what people are trying to accomplish and he will be able to support any level of your demands. However you need to truly have the evolve demands and very precisely nailed down the requirements for your project in order to make Bruce to do what you want. You need to understand that Bruce is accustom to deal with his typical customers – the f#cking audio retards that will swallow anything as long it was chip and “recommended”." End Quote.
Romy may be an A-hole, but he does spend an inordinate amount of time thinking seriously about horns.
Can we agree that these horns are too small for 80hz? Or at least there is a sound quality trade off for the small size?
I'm not saying this to shoot down your horns. Quite the opposite. I think it is still a great idea. It's solves the problem of having a three foot long plus horn in your room. Not many people have room for a horn that long. I do, but I wouldn't use one, because it would be too directional. I still might use one anyway. :)
The Tune Audio horns are five foot tall. The Inlow Sound would be something like 3'9" + 8" for 4'4" tall. That's all very mangageable. Most ceilings are at least 8', so who cares? It's getting the footprint down that would matter to the home user. Also it's a nearfield horn. I think the down firing straight horn is a win-win configuration.
It's just that it needs to be appropriately sized. I like to keep my horns and drivers happy. A 100hz horn would be way more easy to implement wouldn't it? If I was a horn designer, I would design a straight M/B horn that went something like 140hz to 900hz.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I'm afraid I'm not very good a phrasing technical things. I understand that both the length and mouth area determine the cutoff of a horn. About how you choose certain parameters and the expansion ratio determines end result. With tractrix isn't it, pick two parameters, and the ratio provides the third?Let me try to rephrase the driver question, and this is the question I care about.
If you used a driver in these horns that put out a 60hz tone, would that cause distortion, because you are trying to pass a soundwave that is too big for the horn? To you that may seem a stupidly obvious question, but the concept of the open sides from the mouth to the floor forming the mouth area throws me a bit. The fact that you are getting such a low cutoff on such a small horn makes me wonder what other conceptions have changed.
Thanks,
J
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 11/04/14
LOL It's halftime.
What about no baffle in the rear?
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Bruce,
Your staples are what put you in with the likes of Paul Klipsch. The world just doesn't know what it's missing.
Thank you for the explanation. You answered my most difficult question. It nailed the crux for me.
I would love to read a new article by you about down-firing horns. Try dictating the article instead of typing it. Typing is a hassle. For all I know the NASA scientist may have one of the voice typing programs.
All the Best,
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I have a funny feeling that that NASA voice typing program will be called Eduard G.
Hi Ed,
I wanted to tell you I am sorry if I put something on you in public when I shouldn't have. I know how crazy hectic life is. I'm in it too. I'm new to forums, and I guess I will have to learn what others learned twenty years ago.
I apologize. I hope no hard feelings.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Hey, I was joking. I saw Bruce today - he kindly allows me to use his workshop and I did some woodworking. We discussed the article. I will bring my system to his house in the next day or two and we will conduct more listening and measuring tests.
One article about down-firing horns would be Golden.
J
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
oh well, nobody can say I didn't try.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Bruce, it's actually a 470 Hz, not 550. You're flattering me - "we write a joint article." Ha - that made my day! No, you will have to do all the writing. I'm really more like a craftsman, an artisan perhaps, but I'm not a learned scientist, not even an engineer. Over the last two decades plus (has it been that long?!) of rubbing elbows with you I've developed an intuitive understanding/appreciation of what makes a good horn speaker and what should be avoided, but I really don't understand the science of all of this. I'm more like, heck, let's try this 1 uf cap in the tweeter circuit. Alright. Now, what will happen if we try 2 uf? Uh...that's a little too much. OK. How about 1.5 uf? On the money! This sounds the best! Most of my listening testing was done with my dear friend of many years, Cy Benneman. Cy builds - to my ears - the most musical amps I've ever heard and the little blue bugger one sees on the shelf on the photo is his 4w/ch el-34 triode strapped amp.
Edits: 10/27/14
Ed,I'm going to save all my comments, because I want to get one single point across to you.
Get a digital voice recorder, and go over to Bruce's house, and do interviews with him. As many as he wants or can handle. As many as you want or can handle. Let him write the article by talking it to you. Yes it involves transcription, editing, organizing, but you can cross that bridge later. You can get people to help you if you want. Pretend your a journalist, and you are interviewing Dr Bruce Edgar. Ask him what he considers the ultimate horn system is now with all his experience. Let him talk about horns as much as he wants, but like a journalist make sure all the bases are covered.
I tell you this, becaue my grandfather was killed in WWII when my father was nine, and at a funeral in a small South Georgia town I met the executive officer of his unit. I learned things in minutes that my father had incorrect. They flew in B-25s not B-17s.
For once I didn't procrastinate and got a recorder and interviewed him.
I didn't just learn history I learned about my grandfater, because I spoke to a man who was his contemporary, was from the same small town, and who checked on him after every action. It was one of the best things I've ever done.Think about it.
Bruce
I don't want to talk like you are not here. I hope you find it interesting.
Jamie
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 10/27/14
Like you, only thru the Good Dr did I get a chance to hear and ultimately meet Mr Benneman.
Ran into him at a HiEnd show in So Cal. His creations were coming under a new company name/umbrella.
He also had a very nice (visual and sounding) speaker to go along with his amps.
Image thanks to EnjoyTheMusic.
The horn loudspeaker in the photo is gorgeous. Is there a website which gives any details on it?
I recommend you google the Newport show last may and Hi Fi Show in NY a few weeks ago. Plenty of pictures there.
T%hank You.
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