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In Reply to: RE: The elephant in the room is... posted by Crazy Dave on August 26, 2014 at 09:41:01
"So if you have a pair of headphones that has good base, you should be able to detect room problems when comparing them the sound of you speakers."
I'm not sure even good headphones are a reliable reference for bass quality. In the recording studio, headphones are notorious for NOT allowing the engineer to set the levels of the bass instruments properly.
I speculate that not only is the tactile aspect of bass necessary for reference quality, but also that the inherently slower decay of bass energy in a room may contribute to pitch differentiation. Obviously we don't want the decay to be too slow, but headphones may go too far the other way.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
Follow Ups:
So you saying that headphones are not the ultimate reference because you would erroneously perceive the pitch of an anomaly due to the slower decay of bass energy in a room. I will keep that in mind when I compare. That given, headphones still could be useful in detecting the presence of an anomaly even if there are inaccuracies in its presentation. Of course how a room sounds can ultimately only be judged by how it sounds. I was looking at purchasing a sound level meter, but that has its problems too. It appears there is no simple solution.
Dave
Where pitch and timbre are concerned you can't hear it in the true sub bass frequencies, ie., below 35Hz. That information comes from the bass and higher frequencies. It's not easy to test that out, as you need not only the usual sine wave generator etc. but also speakers capable of both high output and extremely low THD, otherwise what you're hearing when you play a 25Hz tone and you can discern pitch is harmonics. But if you have horn loaded subs with an Fc of 30Hz or lower you can test them in your backyard and distinctly hear where the sound transforms from indistinguishable rumble to actual pitch, in the 35-40Hz region. It's just as enlightening to play 15Hz at 100dB and not hear a thing, with only the reading of the meter telling you that the sound is there.
By the same token chances are you can't find phones with low enough THD below 35Hz at a high enough output level to hear only the fundamental and not harmonics as well.
It took me a while to digest this, before I could comment. I think you are saying inside a normal room all you will hear is ruble below 35Hz. With headphones, you will have the same result, but it is from THD. So the headphone comparison is only valid above 35hz. Interesting what you say about a horn sub outdoors. Someday I should order the plans and build a Tuba ...
Dave
> I think you are saying inside a normal room all you will hear is ruble below 35Hz.
Yep. It doesn't seem that way, but only because it is an exceedingly rare situation where you'd have frequencies lower than 35Hz with no accompanying harmonics providing pitch and timbre information.
A big ten-four on that!
If "audiophiles" would actually open a book (not to be confused with a magazine or brochure) and learn about the harmonic structure of various instruments, they'd learn that most of what they're hearing when they listen to the very low tones on, say, a tuba or bass violin (string bass) or pipe organ, are the first couple of overtones, not the fundamental. The first overtone (second harmonic) is almost always at a much higher level than the fundamental.
This is one of the reasons why I keep recommending Harry Olson's "Music, Physics and Engineering". It's a treasure trove of knowledge needed to gain a basic understanding of sound, musical instrument sound characteristics, how sound behaves in rooms, and more.
:)
Some of us who listen to headphones on a regular basis in the home environment think that you are correct, and some of us who use "open-backed" headphones might go so far as to employ the use of a subwoofer. Seems like a weird idea at first, but those who have tried it know about that sense of viscerality and that slightly more natural sense of LF "decay".
Edits: 08/26/14 08/26/14 08/27/14
I agree with you, except for the part about a subwoofer seeming a little weird. ;) Our bodies are pretty sensitive to low frequency sound, so there's a good reason why headphone listening can be improved by using a subwoofer (or, as I like to call it, a woofer).
On the other hand, I find headphone listening to be very unnatural - regardless of the recording technique, and only do it when I'm making a recording and need to monitor the sound, or at home when other people want to get some sleep!
:)
Headphones listening is something of an "acquired taste", I think. But it must be admitted that more and more people are acquiring headphones and that this trend will most likely continue on for quite some time. I hope that more people will learn how to make the most of their headphone listening experience.
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