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Hello,
found a video at the link attached.
Even through Youtube they sound really amazing !
They seem to have everything ... and the drums sound very real.
Unfortunately they are out of my range.
But i am mostly impressed by the shallow tweeter horn.
I guess the exceptional sound depends a lot on it.
Is there anything similar availble for DIY project ?
Thanks a lot indeed.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 03/20/14Follow Ups:
The main idea was to see what the Zoom Q3 recorder might pick up near the sweet spot. Some of it sounds okay, some of it does not, but I think the Q3 does a good job capturing the limitations of the room here, more than anything else. Not bad for a recorder you could almost fit in your pocket.
Duke makes very fine loudspeakers. They deserve to be heard 'in person' when possible.
Hi interesting device
But is it also a video recorder ? the one in the link ?
I know that many video professionals use external recorder.
Anyway it would be interesting to listen to the uncompressed cd format file to give a better opinion.
I think that mics position (see picture) is fundamental to give back a good 3D effect.
Maybe they have found a good solution ?
But i like the sound even with all the limitations of youtube compression.
And the speakers are wonderful ... really.
Personally i have a soft spot for nice Tannoy monitors, or better for the DC drivers, in almost any size.
but these should be superior overall.
The drivers used are excellent ... just great for dynamic and resolution.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 03/24/14 03/24/14
Beppe, the microphone setup is a typical X-Y configuration, also known as a "coincident pair".:)
Edits: 03/24/14
Hi i read that the original recording is in cd format
It would be nice to listen to it without compression.
I have seen so many interesting systems in Youtube but the recordings when done in the room were very poor quality.
I think that a recording in the listening room correctly executed could give a good picture of the actual sound
It seems to me that this device sound is really great
It is unbelievable the quality that these digital recorder can provide.
Unbelievable ... in such a small package.
Kind regards,
bg
Thanks!The manufacturer of that waveguide is DDS, and the model is ENG 1-90, available from US Speaker. I believe it was designed by Mark Engebretson, now with QSC. If you shoot me an e-mail, I'll tell you a bit more about it.
It is made of fiberglass. I no longer use it because, among other things, each one had to be hand-grinded quite a bit before it could be mounted to the cabinet and the driver mounted to it (this to address the unfortunately considerable unit-to-unit variations), and despite respirator and gloves and other precautions, I was always in bad shape for several days afterwards.
I now believe that better net results can be obtained by combining a rectangular or elliptical waveguide with a rear-firing tweeter, thus combining the benefits of closer driver spacing and reduced floor/ceiling bounce with a spectrally-correct reverberant field as the rear tweeter fills it in.
That being said, the DDS waveguide is a thing of beauty.
Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
Edits: 03/22/14
Hello and thank you for the very useful advice
" Thanks!
The manufacturer of that waveguide is DDS, and the model is ENG 1-90, available from US Speaker. I believe it was designed by Mark Engebretson, now with QSC. If you shoot me an e-mail, I'll tell you a bit more about it.
It is made of fiberglass. I no longer use it because, among other things, each one had to be hand-grinded quite a bit before it could be mounted to the cabinet and the driver mounted to it (this to address the unfortunately considerable unit-to-unit variations), and despite respirator and gloves and other precautions, I was always in bad shape for several days afterwards. "
Well this is enough for me to look for another option
I am already in bad shape due to a prolonged stay in an unfriendly environment
" I now believe that better net results can be obtained by combining a rectangular or elliptical waveguide with a rear-firing tweeter, thus combining the benefits of closer driver spacing and reduced floor/ceiling bounce with a spectrally-correct reverberant field as the rear tweeter fills it in.
That being said, the DDS waveguide is a thing of beauty.
Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
Duke "
Thanks a lot. I had already information on this kind of horns.
I think i will go this way then.
Kind regards,
bg
I think what you mean is: These sound amazing even through the room, microphone, mic preamp and ADC used to record the speakers, y-tube compression, your computer's sound card and DAC, amplifier and speakers.
;)
At first, I thought it was Buddy Rich. About 15 seconds later, it became obvious that it wasn't Buddy - it was too simple. Although, John Bonham clearly was influenced by Buddy's solo playing style.
I've never heard any of Duke's speakers, but I would presume that they're excellent, especially since he and I agree philosophically on several aspects of loudspeaker design and playing them in rooms.
:)
Hi and yes you are right
The gentleman has used the recorder in the video attached ...
I think that without the Youtube compression a high quality recorder could capture quite well the sound of a stereo system in the listening room.
I do not know the format on youtube
They should provide a link to download a redbook file.
Still my impression is very positive.
In other video i get always the clear sensation of a reproduced sound.
Here the drums seem in the room ... very realistic sound.
I do not know if this can be called HE ... so maybe i am OT
But i got the answers i was looking for and more ...
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
Amazing percussion sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofzJ6TiNKKk
Some jazz:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYhpRlY_EfM
TAD (doesn't sound as good as WE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSlWNzwuvVo
JBL (doesn't sound as good as the TAD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNFK4w9NgoM
$60K JBL, not too bad (WE still sounds better)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVaxIRnM1C8
love those WE -- here's kinda the sound of my 1955 Karlson Eight w. W8-1772
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWnKpr4coPE
Karlson Evangelist
I have 3' woofers on my computer system streaming low rez through a re-purposed Marantz AV reciever- I can definitely discern the different "sound" coming from those Youtube systems. Fascinating.
The WE definitely takes the cake. Organic and natural. I'm sure there are gobs of resinence and distortion coming from those big horns (compared to the modern spkrs anyway). And I imagine it's rolled off on both ends but that sound is butter. Awesome.
I wonder how much of that magic you could retain if you put those drivers (I assume they are 555's?) in a smaller, home friendly but well designed horn?
BTW- That last JBL sounds horrible to me.
Hello again ... i like these one most ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSlWNzwuvVo
what a beauty ... and what a sound
The others are too much actually
But as i said the Audio Kinesis sound to me very very good indeed
Another track ... sublime ... even through Youtube ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttFQPacCCFs
great !
I have arrived to the conclusion that high efficiency and low distortion can give what i am looking for ... effortless delivery of sounds, pardon ... music !
I want to ear the singers breathing ... the noise of the fingers on guitar strings ..
Thanks a lot again for the great links!
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 03/20/14 03/20/14
Listen carefully again.
The TAD sound a bit muddy in the lower register compared to the WE.
Hello, ok but i have absolutely not the needed spaced to place these huge speakers
I am looking for a "human" speaker, one not too big.
I understand i will have to trade off something ... but i have a small living room.
Instead the Audio Kinesis, size wise, can be ok.
Thank you again for the link to the horn ... i think it is the key piece
I am searching for nice performance ... not top.
Just nice and clean sound ...
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
"Is there anything similar availble for DIY project ?"
My suspicion is that it would be hard to "beat" the Jazz Modules with a DIY project. By beat, I mean getting a comparable SQ for the money. Duke is a very small and efficient operation selling directly to customers, so not a lot of layers of mark up. Not to mention countless hours of tweaking by a competent professional etc..
Having said that, you could build something like (which would be good but different) with a co-ax and woofer, ala Tannoy DMT. But getting the crossover (among other issues) right would be a handful. I don't see a lot of people doing this, which implies difficulty. It's not like doing a 2 way with a CD and a 15" woofer (which even I can do and have done).
The one aspect of Dukes system that really intrigues me (from a DIY perspective) is the multiple sub application. I want to use multiple (3 or 4) infinite baffles as I have both crawl space and attic space. I am looking at his and Dr. Geddes application for this problem solving solution to bass management. My hang up is getting my head around the optimum placement in a difficult room... Not to mention cutting holes in my ceiling and floors.
Hello and thanks for the reply.
Mine is not a suspicion, it is a certainty
As i said even through youtube i got the feeling of something really special. The drums sound real.
Then i searched for the drivers complement and i saw Tad and Beyma.
But what took my attention is the horn.
It looks like a Geddes' horns.
I wonder if they are available as parts somewhere.
I think that the horn must contribute to the overall excellent performance.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
I think I'm confused- I'm thinking these are dual concentric along with a woofer... no?
Which of these drivers are handling the drum duties you are admiring?
Hello and sorry maybe i am wrong
I think they are 2 ways with a horn loaded compression tweeter over a woofer
I checked the drivers and the woofer is a TAD while the tweeter is a Beyma
Maybe i am wrong.
I said the drum and i think that the TAD a very top driver is the main actor but in another video also the tweeter seems very good indeed.
As i have been told it is not possible to judge seriously through youtube for the high compression but still i have the feeling that the sound is something special ... very clean dynamic and powerful.
It has everything ...
I understand that even just the drivers must be very expensive by themselves.
Another exceptional example of high eff speaker.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 03/20/14 03/20/14 03/20/14 03/20/14
OH... I see. From lesser quality pictures it always looked like a 15" driver and a tweeter baked in there somehow.
That horn is quite shallow.
Hello, i have decided at least to try to learn something on horns
You say " That horn is quite shallow "
Is this a good design choice ?
what about the circular shape ? is it better than squared ?
I already know that many pro monitors manufacturers use waveguides that look quite similar to very shallow horns.
I listened to one and i liked very much what i heard.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
"You say " That horn is quite shallow "
Is this a good design choice ?"
I wouldn't presume to question the designers choice here, especially since I have never (directly anyway) heard them. Those horns are unique... is all I'm trying to say.
If they sound good to you and better than anything else, then you have already learnt everything there is to "learn".
I suppose my only reservations regarding these speakers, on paper anyway, would be the efficiency. I'm currently at 100db and am looking to bump that up... which is not easy without going "large".
Hi,
yes i have space constraints.
These ones look still acceptable in size for a small to medium listening room.
I understand that other speakers can provide same or maybe even higher quality with superior efficiency.
Kind regards,
bg
The lower the horn covers, the better it will sound.
The DDS makes for a compact design, something like that may be for you.
Maybe a project from forum member Les Hudson? Horn-loaded to 300hz, push pull slot-loaded 8's on the bottom.
Hello, yes i am thinking to something similar to the ones depicted
But with the other horn and a compression tweeter .. 2 ways ...
I would place the compression driver over the bass box on a support so that the horn could be aligned with the front baffle of the bass box.
It is a medium term project.
A friend could provide the drivers and help for the bass box design and construction.
I am looking only for decent performance.
Anyway i am more and more convinced that HE is the way to go.
Conventional speakers have no chance against a good HE loudspeaker.
Also because a speaker must be loud ... that is why is called that way.
Joke aside is the reproducible dynamic range that counts. I guess.
Thanks again for the very valuable help and advice.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 03/22/14
http://www.ddshorns.com/ENG%201-90%20pro.pdf
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20CP380M-1.htm
The Beyma CP380M is also used in the Avantgarde Trio.
Not 380 since it is a neo motored driver.
The compression driver is the Beyma CP-385Nd. I went through a lot of compression drivers first, and that was the best I could find at the time for that application. Since then a couple of drivers have come on the market that I like a bit better, but it's still a very good one.If I'd have been smart, I'd have simply followed the advice of Al at US Speaker from the beginning. He recommended that driver to me and for various reasons (which in retrospect amounted to ignorance and prejudice in my part) I tried almost everything else first.
If you're going to use a shallow horn or waveguide like the DDS, you don't want a compression driver with a long internal "snout", like the TADs, as that results in an abrupt change in angle where the two meet, which would be a potential source of distortion.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
Edits: 03/22/14
Duke, what else these days are you liking? I'm trying to figure what to buy, and so far I've narrowed the list down to the BMS 4552, Beyma CP385, and three Celestions- the 1425, 1445, and the 1730.
Probably would be going on an Eminence Beta 10CX in which case I would get the screw on version of the Celestions...or get bolt on and use adapters incase I ever wanted to do something else with them later on that didn't require a screw on driver.
I heard the 1425 was pretty incredible from 2k and up. And the 1730/1731 was incredibly detailed. Not so much info on the other models per say, but heard the whole line up was solid. The 1745/46 is interesting because there is a new polyamide version of it (1747) on the market and the diaphrams are interchangable.
I'm using Celestion in several models these days - good call!! Their polymer diaphragm models are magnificent imo and ime. Every one I've tried has worked well, so I think you're in good shape just to go with whichever one suits your application. I use them in home audio as well as prosound, and haven't had a single one fail in the field yet.I hear from several trusted users that Faital makes some very good compression drivers also; once again I'd go with the polymer diaphragms.
The only metal diaphragm compression drivers that I really like are the beryllium diaphragm models from Radian, but that's what I'd go with if price and weight were not issues.
Maybe it's my imagination, but I think I hear a little bit of edginess in the BMS drivers that I've tried. I wanted to love them because their power-to-weight ratios set the bar, but I like the more conventional Beyma and the Celestions better.
Duke
Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too.
Edits: 03/22/14
Cool cool.
Well you aren't the first person I've heard say that about the BMS. They seem to have a very love hate relationship...very polarizing- some love them and others can't stand them. The 4550 and 4552s have a massive resonance up around 17-18k. I know Tom likes and uses them in some of his stuff though.
I forgot about Faital Pro. The HF10AK looks really nice, and I've heard a few good things about the other drivers...just not much info on them out there though their cone drivers all look amazing from what I've seen, so maybe the compression drivers have some of that magic too.
I would love the Radians, but waaaaaaay too much money for me.
Thanks Duke!
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/HF10AK/8/HF10AK_datasheet_8.pdf
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/HF108/8/HF108_datasheet_8.pdf
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/HF107/8/HF107_datasheet_8.pdf
I am comparing the HF10AK with the HF107, and trying to get HF108 samples.
"If you're going to use a shallow horn or waveguide like the DDS, you don't want a compression driver with a long internal "snout", like the TADs, as that results in an abrupt change in angle where the two meet, which would be a potential source of distortion. "
A big 10-4 on that. The words "impedance mismatch" and "reflection" come to mind.
:)
Hello and thankyou so much for your kind and extremely valuable information.
As i said mine is only and impression of something really special
Am i wrong ?
If not i think i have THE solution ...
Lately i have become more and more interesed in HE speakers
They allow to use small power high quality amps.
But, always on a not scientific basis, i was worried about some possible "megaphone" effect on voices, really the last i would want.
A good rendition of voices for me is fundamental.
At an audio fair i had the opportunity to listen to these in the picture
And i liked what i heard so much
And i was sold on circular horns. I do not like squared horns.
I think i will place and order on this horns/drivers at least (TAD woofers are exceptional but also expensive. I have to find a cheaper option i am afraid).
Do you know the speakers in questions maybe ?
Thanks a lot indeed for your very valuable advice.
Kind regards,
bg
I don't know...they sound just like my computer speakers...
Good one, Hornlover!
Hi and yes of course
I also searched around and found great opinions of these speakers.
In particular the horn interests me.
I have a friend with mani compression drivers but the horns he has are squared ... i like this circular and shallow one so much better.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
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