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In Reply to: RE: I can assure you an EV15b doen not have a natural roll off posted by rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com on March 13, 2014 at 14:26:03
Very nice stuff . Slate plinth for the TT as well!! Any chance of some more pictures of the horn system? Is that the Inlow paper horn as well?
Cheers
FM
Follow Ups:
That is one of John Inlow's paper mache horns.
I like trying to do things myself but I know my limitations and I can see Mr. Inlow's fabrication talents are well developed - it would take a decade for me to approach so I gladly got them from him.
Using them with JBL 2441/Truextents - which is what I had used with the Edgar round horns.
There is no comparison in the sound quality they produce. For some the size of the horn could be a problem. They fit perfectly in my system - the extra length puts the mouth in front of the SEISMIC where before the Edgar would have to be placed too far to the front of the woofer to keep from being behind the SEISMIC's front wall.
But the biggest advantage, and I suspect due to the material more than the shape, is the great reduction in resonance. Not that I could say I had been annoyed by resonances before but it soon became obvious that there was greater effortlessness and spaciousness with the paper mache horns.
I wish John could find a way to make a paper mache horn for below 500 hz. It would probably take a year to lay down enough paper but I extrapolate they would be the ultimate.
The mid-bass horn is a collaboration with Attila and Inlow with four months of finishing work by me. The throat area had been reduced too much but then these horns had to be put in the mail so minimizing weight was a requirement. So counteract this I used a mixture of sand and BONDO to add mass and strength to the critical throat area.
The back chamber is extremely inert and tight around the woofer.
The B&C woofer that John uses is a revelation compared to the EV. It is so much superior I wonder if my recently reconed EV15's (by ORANGE COUNTY) are/were defective. The B&C in this horn are so vastly superior. The EV's were in one of the few 75 hz horns Dr. Edgar made. Mine were a flat pack kit that I finished.
For those with Edgar straight horns maybe the best thing to do is to get a pair of John Wolfe's (CAR) 15 inches woofers. He says they are vastly superior and I bet he is right! Another fine gentleman we are lucky to have involved in this noble hobby.
Hi Rick,
I have the Edgar 350 with 2441/Radian,but have not yet bought
upper bass horns.Would you give a more detailed comparison with
your Inlow horns and also your upper bass horns compared to Edgars ?
From what I have read,beaming can be an issue with tractrix,how
are the Inlows in this regard ?
I don't see a tweeter in your setup,how high does your 2441/Inlow go ?
Thanks for any info you can share.
There may be beaming - I sit in the same place when I listen and can only wish I could convince someone to come over and listen so what is called beaming by many I call focus.
You can barely see the FOSTEX t500's in the photo. They come in around 10K. The 2441's are not limited on the top end.
I am confused by upper bass horn? Do you mean what I am calling the sub500 horns? If you are there is simply no comparison in tonal quality, spaciousness in all directions and detail. I can assure you they are much better but am not practiced at the art of audiospeak in addition to the fact I do not know anyone with a big stereo system to compare - I can only compare to live music.
Not about to claim I have captured the sound of live music but there is much greater sense of dynamics - drums in both symphonic and rock settings have much greater realism. I wish they sounded real but there is much improved coherence of the initial impact and the overtones - there is a greater revealing of the overtones - both skin/head and shells.
Listening to the old warhorse - the Gershwin RHAPSODY/AMERICAN IN PARIS/Boston/Fiedler one can be almost overwhelmed by the sense of the hall the recording was made in. I thought I had had decent sound before but I have never heard anything like this.
I know there is more work to do which is pretty exciting.
Thanks for the response.I was asking about your mid-bass horn
which you answered,and also could you expand a bit on your
comparison of the Inlow and the Edgar round horn for the 2441 ?
I have not heard a lot of different horn setups.When I see a
horn shaped like the Inlow,I imagine that would constrict the
sound,but what you have said indicates otherwise.
When first installed and my memory of the sound of the Edgar's fresh the size of the sound reminded me of my me4mories of early Magneplanars driven by Audio Research D75's in comparison to what was available at the time.
(yes, this is a spacey comparison)
The size of the image projected by the Inlow's in comparison to the Edgar's was of the same magnitude. With the advantage that the Inlow (along with the Edgar for that matter) image better than the Magnepans. The Magnepans had almost no imaging ability at all but the size of the presentation was very attractive. This, for me, is a very important aspect of sound reproduction. I want the presentation to be as large as possible while being proportional to the scale of the music - it must be able to get small, if the recording will allow. Nothing will ever make the giant guitars on those old Cat Stevens albums ever become life size (not that I use those records as references - but it is pretty funny to hear).
AS much as I enjoyed my Edgar round horns for these many years there is no comparison to what Inlow has achieved. I think the material he used allowed taking the tractrix contour to to its conclusion - it would be very expensive to fabricate this with wood. I would ask who would want to since I suspect the paper mache is a large part of the quality of sound these produce. Low mass, very stuff results in minimal resonance and that results in a purity of tone and much less interference so the little details are easily revealed.
for sharing your experience... one last question... how far do you have to sit for the horns to integrate well together?
Cheers
Frank M
My room is a little narrow aggravated by having the SEISMICS in the corners. Though I do think I have a pretty good sounding room. (don't we all? until we find out otherwise!)
I have the speakers (for the moment) pointed straight ahead which seems to sound best. Started out with them angled in and slowly have moved to straight ahead.
I find this system allows almost immediate polarity decisions. With the polarity correct there is a great difference in sounds perceived from outside the speakers. Before I had to listen much longer to be sure most of the time.
Using crossover components at the speakers but with amplifiers for each driver. Will try a Nelson Pass based buffer active eventually. Figure I will wait until I tire of this sound before going ahead with finishing THAT project.
Have only had it running for about three weeks and have lots to learn.
Hope to take some measurements this weekend. Thought I would get something I thought sounded good and then see what REW has to say (which is another thing I have lots to learn about).
You ask a simple question and I give you an essay!
With the Synergy, you can literally sit with your head inside the horn (there's only one).
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