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HeyI am tuning my horn system and need advices.
I currently have a TAD 1603 loaded into a 170LT/35Hz bass reflex, a 300Hz JMLC-Iwata horn with a TAD 4001 and a 1kHz JMLC horn with TAD 2001; xover is 600ohm 24dB/oct at 600Hz and 8/16ohm 6dB/oct at 2.4kHz (at drivers binding posts); system is biamped. I switch back and forth between 2 ways (bass bin + big horn only) and 3 ways and I cannot mature any definitive decision.
Measurements are attached, physical time alignment is now optimized for the best measured and listening result (well, I hope): drivers are 30cm approx behind the woofer, I used to have them perfectly aligned to woofer but it seems to sound better this way and step response is more compact too.
When I am playing it 2 ways it seems to be more snappy and with more focus but voices sound sometime a bit gigantic and megaphonic (specifically male voices in certain songs). 3 ways sounds milder and voices are just superb but somehow the system is a bit blurry. These are very subtle and minor nuances to be listened for with care and attention. All in all this set up is really enjoyable and much better than many speakers I listened to.
Any comment on the bandwidth and step response and suggestions and guidance? I am prepared to get rid of 2001's and add a super tweeter at 8-10kHz but somehow I feel that would not improve the situation. Would a different mids horn (tractrix or JMLC) change things? I'd like to retain the brisk and detailed timbre of 2 ways but maintain the nuances of 3 ways.
thanks everybody
gianluca
measurements at 3.5mt from speakers
Edits: 03/12/14Follow Ups:
Hello,
What is the problem? I do not want to offend you but really : this is a question of Too much money and not enough knowledge,i'm afraid...
You have extremely good components and a bad result, the frequency response proves that your filtering and bass loading is wrong.
With these components it is absolutely no problem having an lineair result +/- 1,5 db from 40- 20 khz !!!
The secret is building the right crossover and finetuning the bassloading and optimizing your room acoustics.
Do not sell the 2001 ! It is one of the very best drivers available.
I eventually sold the 2001's to secure resources for tweeters, I know I will miss them as I am missing a pair of JBL 2482's sold time ago, but, hey!, I cannot pile parts like an audio-fetishist.
I am still not convinced about ribbons mostly because I am not very familiar with them but I received, and read, positive and negative comments on RAALs. I know pretty well fostex tweeters as I owned them and listened to many friends' and they are a solid alternative on the table. But, what about SLS and SA?
http://www.stageaccompany.com/support/downloadnew/8535_techdoc.pdf
http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/PRD1000datasheet.doc.pdf
They sport a good efficiency and are sold at a lower price. I read good reports on SA but almost nothing on SLS.
Suggestions?
thanks
Please keep us informed. I am in the midst of finally putting my system together, working out the crossover details. My system looks quite a bit like yours. I am using an AE TD15X for bass, using the same Iwata 300 horn with Radian 950PBe and was going to play around with the Beyma TPL-150H of the Fostex tweeters you sold me a while back up top. I am very interested in the RAAL lazy ribbons, but mostly in how to actually getting useful response out of that to work in a system.
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"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
JoshK - You seem to be looking at the RAAL response graph where SPL rises gradually from 107 db at 10k Hz to just over 110 db at 16k Hz then down to 109.5 db at 20k Hz. If you're crossing above 10k, I wouldn't see this "hill" as noticeable. I would think that there would be more significant abnormalities with measurement instruments than a 3db rise in this frequency range. Contrast this with the amount hearing deteriorates with age and a 3db rise seems negligible. I can't comment on how the RAAL would perform crossing much lower than 10k Hz. I wouldn't think they'd be a good option, but I've never tried.
I'd recommend trying what you have first and then identify the problem areas. You may find that your 300 Hz Iwata horn may not sound how you want it as it stretches up past three or four octaves; that may make the tweeter decision for you. You may find that you that you need to cross lower than 10k Hz or add an upper midrange horn to reduce beaming the higher frequencies. All this is impossible to see on paper.
I am of the engineering mindset (not an engineer, but math background). I was planning to cross in the 5.5k-7k region before the breakup of a 4" diaphragm and the impending directivity collapse. So, the RAAL looks not so great. I really don't think I'd bother if I was just going to cross at 10k unless it was super shallow (6db/oct) as my hearing above 10k in my right ear is suspect (left is pretty much fine).
I have the B&C DE35, the Fostex super tweeter (forget the model) that gluca sold me somewhere around a year ago, the Beyma 150H. As you can tell, I like to experiment. I just like wide open sound and hate beaming. I used to own a few different planar speakers (and other types) but the beaming drove me mental.
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"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
The RAAL doesn't sound like the right choice. Sounds like you have all the components together for round one. Report back and let me know how it goes.
If you find the Fostex to be a little tizzy sounding, the EV T350 that Mats mentioned with its phenolic diaphragm is an interesting alternative. It's more of an anti-tweeter. It doesn't have great HF extension, but it's incredibly smooth and integrates well down low——even when crossing first-order.
If I were to place importance on elements of a horn system, the tweeter would be dead last. I'd spend the majority of time getting the upper-bass and midrange right. There's hardly any real music 10k Hz+. It's mostly overtones. Yes. A bad tweeter can make a system sound mechanical and unnatural. Visiting audio shows, it seems that some people actually like a heavy sizzle sound with a hockey stick bump above 8,500 Hz. For me, I don't want to even notice the tweeters. They should blend in. They should make the midrange sound more natural and take over in the break-up. There are a lot of great tweeters out there that achieve this. I happen to have the RAAL Lazy Ribbons (with amorphous cores) in my 5-way horn system. I'm really happy with them and I have little desire to change to something else. My only complaint is that in a multi-way horn system, they take up over 9" of precious vertical space (you can see in the picture that space is tight). Sound-wise they fit my criteria. They have a very natural non-metalic sound. They "complete" the midrange. The output can be configured to match the efficiency of other drivers by dialing in the impedance. Just consider your vertical and your horn placement configuration before going with the RAALs.
Edits: 04/18/14
How did you make your midbass horns? Those look very interesting.
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"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
They're made out of hard plaster, hemp, and burlap (over 300 lbs each). I used a layup method on top of a mold rather than inside a closed mold, and this took a lot of practice to get right. If I were to do it again, I would probably try a different, easier, method. It's a little deceiving from the angle of the picture, but they're actually elliptical with 54" wide x 34" high mouths (100 Hz full-space). I decided on elliptical rather than circular so the midrange can still be placed at ear level. The throat works out to a 3 1/2" diameter loaded with Fane Studio 8Ms. The expansion is hypex.
Those are awesome! I wish I had the space to make big horns like those.
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"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Outside or a garage would work better than a basement. I speak from the experience of a man who is still cleaning up black powder!
Thanks all
I tuned the xover a bit (smaller hi pass cap), played a bit with physical alignment and I think I found a result I can settle with. I will consider to add a super tweeter clocking in at 10kHz or maybe sell the 2001 and replace them with a super tweeter to stay simpler. I'll be listening for a while before I mature a definitive (?) decision.
comments welcome!
g
The 2001 should go out to 20K, so the response looks weird.
But then, I couldn't hear much about 15K when I tested my horns, so I didn't worry a lot about ultra-sonic tweeters.
You're got a 300hz horn and 600hz xover. My inclination is trying a different horn and super tweeter that comes in around 8-10K.
-Rod
nearfield it would and it actually does. I am considering adding a super tweeter, see my new measurement (upper post)
thanks
From what I'm seeing on the new measurements, the 2001s still look redundant. I'd sell them.
-Rod
My experience with compression drivers have encouraged me
to avoid the even slight high frequency break up.
These graphs from a Japanese site indicate that the 2001 reaches higher smoother.
In my system, the break ups are felt when the music is loud and complex.
I would try to roll off the 4001 at 2K perhaps, and gently bring in the 2001 above that.
Then by 8 or 9K it is time for a Raal or as I have chosen, EV T-350.
I also very much prefer a second order low pass on my sealed TAD 1601b.
The blending of upper bass and midrange horn is to these ears both
sensual and essential. Therefor also the quality of tubes driving the bass.
Mats
Lazy ribbons?
I never understood how one gets a very useable response with high sensitivity with the lazy ribbon as the response is a huge hill. If you low pass it up high to get HF extension then it seems you are throwing most of its useable bandwidth away.
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"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Yes, lazy, I believe, that is what my friend Ben uses.
He seems satisfied, and has moved on to other projects.
Romy has a lot of information on his site.
I agree, they will soon on sale. i am gathering comments from users on RAAL lazy ribbons. I am pretty familiar with all the fostex's
> I'd like to retain the brisk and detailed timbre of 2 ways but maintain the nuances of 3 ways.
Sounds like you'd want a Danley Synergy horn. 3 way horn that acts like a one way.
Of course, that would be starting over, so maybe not a helpful suggestion...
so, it seems the 2001 is not 8ohm. a 7.3uF leaves bandwidth undisturbed down to 1kHz (compare to filtered measurement in previous posts)
woofer
mid
high
Those measurements don't look very believable... You might want to check your measurement method. For the woofer the pass band is very flat which it could be if you measured near field, but the response is not rolling off at low frequencies and you should clearly see that if you measured near field as the signal level would typically be high enough compared to the noise floor of your system to see the rolloff. Similarly for your mid and high, they are extremely flat in band and both have a slight shelf around 9k. This seems unlikely if you are using passive crossovers, and I say that having measured both the 2001 and 4001 on my own horns before.
If you want to design a passive crossover, it's a lot easier if you measure the impedance of the drivers and then simulate what the response of the driver will do when you add crossover parts. The 2001 might very well be a nominally '8 ohm' driver, but its impedance will change with frequency so a capacitor will not have the effect on the response you would expect with a resistive load.
Thanks John
They are nearfield no xover
Thanks for all your inputs and suggestions.RAAL: wondering how I can integrate it, triamping?? not really willing to attenuate horns as RAALs are rated at 92dB/W/m.
FOSTEXs: I was considering the small 925 to cover > 10k and save big bucks
6dB/oct: I tried simpler 6dB/oct xover for woofer and mid horn but I really felt the woofer had too much energy at 1kHz disturbing mids. this steeper slope is sounding better, IMHO. Unfortunately I have no room for a mid bass front horn ... hopefully I will assembly it in the future.
Now a couple measurements I took nearfield (30cm from mouths/woofer). Woofer and mid look OK but high (TAD 2001 into 1kHz horn) looks really odd!! It seems there is no hi pass at all as driver starts sounding at 1kHz while I intended to xover it at 2.4kHz 6dB/oct. I am using 5.6uF+1.5uF caps
again: i am biamping with a 600Hz 24dB/oct xover and horns have a 2.4kHz 6dB/oct passive xover
x
Edits: 03/13/14
Make a smaller horn for the TAD 2001
I think there is something wrong with the 2001 highpass, i'll post unfiltered measurements later tonite
Gianluca,
I run a very similar system to yours. Mine is a bass reflex cabinet with AE TD15H woofer actively crossed at 500 Hz/24 dB to the same Iwata 300 horn using JBL2450 with Be diaphragms. I use Fostex T500 super tweeter with passive crossover about 10k Hz. I would suggest trying your TAD2001 crossed higher, to act more as a super tweeter. It's an easy experiment.
Those response curves look remarkable good to me. Use your ears as judgement from there.
I would keep the tad 2004, and ad RAAL ribbon tweeters.
Do a sweep of woofer, then overlay sweep of 4001.
It is of that there is more information past 100Hz when in 3 way.
Study the overlaid curves to see if the x-over is correct.
I would test one speaker outside to get accurate crossover alignment.
Bill
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23506-4435-conversion-to-TAD2001
Sorry, I am not used to a tablet.
I meant to say because there is so much more information at 100 Hz when run in three way, I would check the cross over.
My fingers are too big for my 7" tablet!
Check Dr. Bruce Edgars post on this subject. I know he does not like tractrix horns on the tad 4001 for sure. I would look into a front loaded horn as recommended by Dr.Bruce or Inlow sound using an EVM 15b or l driver and use the tad 1603 from around 35 hz or so up to 100hz. This will enable you to use 6db filter from mid bass horn to the tad 4001 as the EVM has a natural roll off around 500 hz. As suggested above you could try a RAAL ribbon or the Fostex t500amk2 horn tweeter which is what Dr.Bruce likes. I use the TAD et703 tweeter and feel it is the best.
at 500 hz.
Even with a 2.5 mH choke.
It has one hell of a peak at 2500 that does not decay until an octave above there.
Many years of listening and finally measuring show this.
John Inlow's horn using the B&C 12 does have a nice roll-off and sounds so much better as to defy belief.
I have recently completed such a system and was waiting to post until I had all sorted out.
Still using the SEISMIC's which I cannot imagine being bettered without spending money I do not have!
Bottom horn designed by John Inlow and basic turning by a fellow in Hungary - athos2222@gmail.com.
Please understand that this is the house of a DIY audiophile. I have told myself when I get this sorting done I will try to clean up the mess. You probably won't believe it either. I call this "quick adjustment mode".
Very nice stuff . Slate plinth for the TT as well!! Any chance of some more pictures of the horn system? Is that the Inlow paper horn as well?
Cheers
FM
That is one of John Inlow's paper mache horns.
I like trying to do things myself but I know my limitations and I can see Mr. Inlow's fabrication talents are well developed - it would take a decade for me to approach so I gladly got them from him.
Using them with JBL 2441/Truextents - which is what I had used with the Edgar round horns.
There is no comparison in the sound quality they produce. For some the size of the horn could be a problem. They fit perfectly in my system - the extra length puts the mouth in front of the SEISMIC where before the Edgar would have to be placed too far to the front of the woofer to keep from being behind the SEISMIC's front wall.
But the biggest advantage, and I suspect due to the material more than the shape, is the great reduction in resonance. Not that I could say I had been annoyed by resonances before but it soon became obvious that there was greater effortlessness and spaciousness with the paper mache horns.
I wish John could find a way to make a paper mache horn for below 500 hz. It would probably take a year to lay down enough paper but I extrapolate they would be the ultimate.
The mid-bass horn is a collaboration with Attila and Inlow with four months of finishing work by me. The throat area had been reduced too much but then these horns had to be put in the mail so minimizing weight was a requirement. So counteract this I used a mixture of sand and BONDO to add mass and strength to the critical throat area.
The back chamber is extremely inert and tight around the woofer.
The B&C woofer that John uses is a revelation compared to the EV. It is so much superior I wonder if my recently reconed EV15's (by ORANGE COUNTY) are/were defective. The B&C in this horn are so vastly superior. The EV's were in one of the few 75 hz horns Dr. Edgar made. Mine were a flat pack kit that I finished.
For those with Edgar straight horns maybe the best thing to do is to get a pair of John Wolfe's (CAR) 15 inches woofers. He says they are vastly superior and I bet he is right! Another fine gentleman we are lucky to have involved in this noble hobby.
Hi Rick,
I have the Edgar 350 with 2441/Radian,but have not yet bought
upper bass horns.Would you give a more detailed comparison with
your Inlow horns and also your upper bass horns compared to Edgars ?
From what I have read,beaming can be an issue with tractrix,how
are the Inlows in this regard ?
I don't see a tweeter in your setup,how high does your 2441/Inlow go ?
Thanks for any info you can share.
There may be beaming - I sit in the same place when I listen and can only wish I could convince someone to come over and listen so what is called beaming by many I call focus.
You can barely see the FOSTEX t500's in the photo. They come in around 10K. The 2441's are not limited on the top end.
I am confused by upper bass horn? Do you mean what I am calling the sub500 horns? If you are there is simply no comparison in tonal quality, spaciousness in all directions and detail. I can assure you they are much better but am not practiced at the art of audiospeak in addition to the fact I do not know anyone with a big stereo system to compare - I can only compare to live music.
Not about to claim I have captured the sound of live music but there is much greater sense of dynamics - drums in both symphonic and rock settings have much greater realism. I wish they sounded real but there is much improved coherence of the initial impact and the overtones - there is a greater revealing of the overtones - both skin/head and shells.
Listening to the old warhorse - the Gershwin RHAPSODY/AMERICAN IN PARIS/Boston/Fiedler one can be almost overwhelmed by the sense of the hall the recording was made in. I thought I had had decent sound before but I have never heard anything like this.
I know there is more work to do which is pretty exciting.
Thanks for the response.I was asking about your mid-bass horn
which you answered,and also could you expand a bit on your
comparison of the Inlow and the Edgar round horn for the 2441 ?
I have not heard a lot of different horn setups.When I see a
horn shaped like the Inlow,I imagine that would constrict the
sound,but what you have said indicates otherwise.
When first installed and my memory of the sound of the Edgar's fresh the size of the sound reminded me of my me4mories of early Magneplanars driven by Audio Research D75's in comparison to what was available at the time.
(yes, this is a spacey comparison)
The size of the image projected by the Inlow's in comparison to the Edgar's was of the same magnitude. With the advantage that the Inlow (along with the Edgar for that matter) image better than the Magnepans. The Magnepans had almost no imaging ability at all but the size of the presentation was very attractive. This, for me, is a very important aspect of sound reproduction. I want the presentation to be as large as possible while being proportional to the scale of the music - it must be able to get small, if the recording will allow. Nothing will ever make the giant guitars on those old Cat Stevens albums ever become life size (not that I use those records as references - but it is pretty funny to hear).
AS much as I enjoyed my Edgar round horns for these many years there is no comparison to what Inlow has achieved. I think the material he used allowed taking the tractrix contour to to its conclusion - it would be very expensive to fabricate this with wood. I would ask who would want to since I suspect the paper mache is a large part of the quality of sound these produce. Low mass, very stuff results in minimal resonance and that results in a purity of tone and much less interference so the little details are easily revealed.
for sharing your experience... one last question... how far do you have to sit for the horns to integrate well together?
Cheers
Frank M
My room is a little narrow aggravated by having the SEISMICS in the corners. Though I do think I have a pretty good sounding room. (don't we all? until we find out otherwise!)
I have the speakers (for the moment) pointed straight ahead which seems to sound best. Started out with them angled in and slowly have moved to straight ahead.
I find this system allows almost immediate polarity decisions. With the polarity correct there is a great difference in sounds perceived from outside the speakers. Before I had to listen much longer to be sure most of the time.
Using crossover components at the speakers but with amplifiers for each driver. Will try a Nelson Pass based buffer active eventually. Figure I will wait until I tire of this sound before going ahead with finishing THAT project.
Have only had it running for about three weeks and have lots to learn.
Hope to take some measurements this weekend. Thought I would get something I thought sounded good and then see what REW has to say (which is another thing I have lots to learn about).
You ask a simple question and I give you an essay!
With the Synergy, you can literally sit with your head inside the horn (there's only one).
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