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I am looking to get into some horns. Is just getting some Altec 511b or 811b horns with 806 drivers and the 15" direct radiator the way to go? Any suggestions?
Follow Ups:
Two horn systems have caught my interest:
1) CLASSIC TWO WAY WITH NEW TECH: LeCleach E-JMCL-300 (looks like a big pair of lips) with the 2" Radian 960dp CD, crossed to two Lambda TD15S in a large sealed bass cabinet. Digial Xover + equalization.
2) UNIQUE SUMMATION HORN: Tom Danley 60x60 Synergy horn crossed to two Lambda TD15S in a large sealed bass cabinet. Digial Xover + equalization.
I am in the fortunate position of being able to start from scratch. I have considered many options over many years and am finally pulling the trigger...
I am not doing what I might think would be the ultimate I could afford or would eventually like at some stage. It is what I feel confident enough to do at the moment... the risk I am able to take and compromises I am willing to make...
GPA 604-8H-III: Rick Craig crossovers (tuned for my sonic preferences); Scott Lindgren designed ~ 290L MLTL tuned for small to medium rooms, wall-loaded and zero-NFB SET-like output impedance; and professionally over-built & finished cabinets that should look like a quality product.
Sure, II'd very much like Azura horns for highs/mids and upper bass with a nice distributed sub-bass system, but I would not be comfortable with the risk or long-term futzing and the resulting system would likely not work in my room. One day perhaps, but not now.
Best of fortune in finding something that works for you.
Cheers.
Hi, If I have the space I'd go with a 15" in a frontloaded midbass horn. Most likely tractrix.. Then a large format cd on a 300Hz e-jmlc horn (elliptical) from Autotech.. Drivers would depend on budget. For off the shelf maybe I'd go with the TD15M woofer and 950pb cd. Then add a very nice super tweeter for the top end. The type of subs would depend on room size.. It would be real nice if someone could make elliptical jmlc horns in real wood.
That's a difficult question. It would largely depend upon the size of the space, the necessary coverage angle, your tolerance for "horn sound", etc.For typical home use, I don't think I'd even consider a horn "system". The dimensions at the low end are just too large to be practical, so you'll have to decide at what frequency you're willing to cross over to direct radiators for the bottom end, or use some serious amount of EQ at lower frequencies. Of course, you "could" build a 30 Hz horn for your living room, but why would you, unless you have a very large room?
I'd definitely consider horns for the upper bass and above. But the old Altec, JBL, Klipsch, etc. horn designs are just too problematic - honky, ringy, uneven directivity, etc.
On the other hand, for a typical small/medium size nightclub, low end horns are quite viable.
hth
Edits: 02/15/12 02/15/12
Hi Chris, I think you may find this site helpful.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
Built in to the ferro concrete house, folded bass-horns. A stack of 2 pairs of QUAD 57s and an Ionofane horn tweeter in between the 57s.The two bass-horn's mouths occupied the entire width of the floor of the very large room right up to the stack of 57s.
When I win the lottery, and can build a house into the side a of a hill, surrounded with and roofed by earth. Earth-damped folded corner horns with huge area mouths.
But with the bass drivers aligned to the main array.
Main array would likely be an OB Bessel array of Manger drivers - as many as Bessel allows. Possibly on a dished surface to help integration / focus at the listener.
Wide radius curved edge OB with deep sides and top. Dual layers of birch-ply with hard-curing foam between, insides lined for absorption.
DSP.
Note that a post in response is preferred.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
Edits: 02/14/12
Timbo, when I win the NY Lotto, we will build it together.
Cheers
Bill
You will be required to listen to it everyday, at 115db, where the devil says it finally opens up and gets cohesive. ;-)
LOL!
Note that a post in response is preferred.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
I believe in the talking snake, and I believe in the magic fruit tree, and I believe you're going to hell If you don't believe me !!!
Religion, the root of all evil.
The devil is real, created by religion to control men by fear.
http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d71.html
Remember, it's all about the music.
EDGARHORN. A great speaker and can be bought unfinished. I see them sometimes on Ebay at a very attractive price.
Take an EV DL10x, and load it into a 60-70 degree conical with a 4.5 ft length. Should get you down to where a subwoofer can take over, and up to where a good midrange can work comfortably.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
I think there was a Sound Practices article (edition #9..?) on building one. Later, if memory serves me well, there was a version that had Karlson K-15 for bass augmentation. I think you would need a fair bit of space with the Karlson's in addition to the horns.
Cheers
FM
I have a couple exemplar bass bins I'm not using. No tops.
Jim
Upper bass horn or bust. 100-120 hz up. Front horn.
Build around it, everything else, is well: everything else...
After that, yeah a model 19 will work.
I'm in this camp. Start with the biggest midbass horn you can tolerate. Jeffrey Jackson referenced below, has some examples of Tractrix 60hz midbass horns and cad drawings of a system around such. I think this strikes the most amount of reasonable compromises in size, etc. That is probably what I'd go for.
Either than or Danley Synergy horns up top, like SH60s.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
I have been using an Altec A5 sized front horn with my PPSL woofers for over 25 years now, but the Danley Synergy Horn idea would be an option too.
One could try the Klipsch Belle type cosmetics on the PPSL (I actually built a pair with the 'V' type grills):
A dual 8" Danley Synergy type horn:
http://www.cowanaudio.com/images/unity28.jpg
Yep, that would be a very good option as well. What current woofer would you choose if you have to run the PPSL up to at least 300hz? I am not as concerned with the first octave as I think seperate subs are more optimal anyway.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Any reasonable driver should do, really!
PPSL reduces distortion to the point that even cheap drivers can sound quite good.
If you are going to use subs you might try a sealed alignment for the best transient response, and use a Linkwitz Transform to get the low cut-off point you desire.
If going for sealed and max efficiency from 50hz on up without much EQ what parameters would you target?
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
An inexpensive option might be the Eminence 15269 (Martin 1844). About 101dB/2.83V/1M (two drivers).Driver Properties
Name: 15269
Type: Standard one-way driver
Company: Eminence Speaker LLC
Comment: Martin #1844
No. of Drivers = 2
Mounting = Standard
Wiring = Parallel
Fs = 23.4 Hz
Qms = 11.63
Vas = 359.4 liters
Cms = 0.35 mm/N
Mms = 132.1 g
Rms = 1.67 kg/s
Xmax = 9.1 mm
Xmech = 15 mm
P-Dia = 329 mm
Sd = 850 sq.cm
P-Vd = 0.774 liters
Qes = 0.35
Re = 6.21 ohms
Le = 2.5 mH
Z = 8 ohms
BL = 18.56 Tm
Pe = 300 watts
Qts = 0.34
no = 1.269 %
1-W SPL = 93.18 dB
2.83-V SPL = 94.28 dB
-----------------------------------------
Box Properties
Name:
Type: Closed Box
Shape: Prism, square (optimum)
Vb = 11.19 cu.ft
Qtc = 0.5
QL = 14.54
F3 = 57.9 Hz
Fill = heavy
********************************************
This would have a Qtc=0.5 and a 40hz resonance. With a 12dB/oct high-pass with a Q=1 at 40hz this would have a LR24 transfer function at 40hz.
*************************************************
Same drivers in 7 cu ft would have a Qtc=0.577 and a 47hz resonance. With a 47hz Q=0.867 12dB high-pass the transfer function would be LR24 at 47hz.
**************************************
Same drivers in 4 cu ft would have a Qtc=0.707 and a 60hz resonance. With a 60hz Q=0.707 12dB high-pass the transfer function would be LR24 at 60hz.
Edits: 02/17/12
This one looks good too. The low Qes, FS with high Vas combo usualy has a nice snappy sound at lower power. Like the old Klipsch Cornwalls if that's what you like. The high LE limits it to below 400hz where the Unity would have to take over. Impressive output to 55hz down tune and EQ for lower.
Others to look at are the Dayton Classic subwoofer with the big rolled surround low bass but only 95db for two. For smaller boxes Faital 12PR300, The FAital has low Le for nicer midbass usage.
I notice this is a Martin Sound driver. Then I noticed that they sell a JBL2226 replacement called the M-2226. Do you happen to have any experience with this driver? Very little info is provided.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Should have changed the subject to M-2226. Have you experienced these?
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
No, I haven't, but I know others that have used them.
A JBL 2226 clone they are not.
How would they work for hi-fi?
Not very well would be my guess. They are very stiff and have a very low Vas. I doubt they would have very good low-level detail. Run a sim and see how well they would work in a sealed box, I think you will not like what you find there either.
Thanks!
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Thanks! I appreciate the example.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Try to buy the best components that u can afford and built something really big. Bigger the better. And then spend your remaining life time to tune it. :) Life is short and your pair of ear's life is even shorter. :)
I am of the same opinion, but at least I have an example to study and understand. Then I can play with whatever "upgraded" driver I'd prefer.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
These might be what you want.
The advantage of these drivers is the midbass up to the horn. If a lower vrossocer or PPSL is the goal a cheaper drvier is just as good. Save these for a conventional two way to a 1.4" horn at 1Khz.
Scott
That was kind of my thought as well, but suggestions were wanted for a better driver.
I am fond of Eminence, and know how the sound dramatically improves in a PPSL configuration, so I tend to recommend inexpensive drivers.
I am currently building a very similar system. 15" Crites cast woofers (CW 1526's) GPA AlNiCo 802's, ALK Engineering ES 700 (extreme slope) crossover, and Altec 811b horns - for now.....I may add a tweeter (Crites 125 or B&C 10) with the ES 5800 crossover by Alk later. Don't know yet if I will need a tweeter.
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
I suggest you take room size into consideration as a major point.
Once you have looked at that, determine whether you are looking at short throw or long throw horns.
Round horns
Tractix, by the nature of their design are long throw.
In a smallish room, tractix tend to give a superb sound, yet have a "head in a vise"
Azurahorns are the shortest throw generally around today. They work better in rooms that are not larger than most. With a larger cone of dispersion they give a huge sweet spot which tends to dissipate the harshness of a tighter narrower sweet spot. Some prefer the tighter sweet spot, however it is somewhat harsh and hard to me.
Other shapes- radial, etc.
Non-round, the shape of the horn, the throw, are also relevant to what you will hear and tend to be room dependent.
Bass horns = huge.
In my setup, I finally went with Hawthorne Duets, two silver Iris Augies per side {dipoles) after I sold my folded horns. Integrate beautifully in my room, and sound great.
There is no "one is best/better"
We all have different rooms, tastes, budgets, abilities to adapt mounts/drivers/stands, etc.
For one configuration, look at my system here at AA. If you are in driving distance of western SC and wish to hear my system, send me PM thru the forum and I will let you know next time I have a listening session.
Since you mentioned 75TL, I will note that I am listening to a GM70/75TH Dowdylama amp on my Azurahorns
In a second system I have a pair of 1970's Klipsch Heresy's with subs. I did one of the autoformer tap mods on the crossover and it is listenable. It is amazing what your ears can adjust to. It just sounds nothing like the good horn system's I have heard.
I will look into all the suggestions.
I would avoid altec horns as used in the altec 19. They do sound colored.
If you have the space, but a rather limited budget, i recommend you go for a design as linked below : a simple two way configuration. The Beyma TPL-150 is the finest transducer i have come across in years, for frequencies above 1,2khz. nothing else i heard, comes close.
My Altec horns do not sound colored at all. I have taken steps to eliminate the bell-like resonance, though.
back when i had Altec 19's, i substituted the original altec horn with a wooden raidial horn, and coloration were diminished substantially. That was a remarkable improvement.
I would stack Klipschorn bottoms and between them use the Altec 594MR / 299-16 and EV t-350's. 4 Klipschorn bottoms (2 per side) would get the efficiency up to the point where padding the mid horn would not be so severe. I would guess I could get 30Hz -10dB with that configeration and the footprint is rather small for that robust of a horn system.
I have always been curious how that would sound. I suppose a buildup of upper bass would occur but a shelving network could address any of those woes. Perhaps a larger mid horn (250Hz) would be of order.
Visit Pispeakers.com, read the white paper and crossover document before choosing.
I'd build clones of Altec 19s (or buy some existing ones) and be done with it.
Lots of good advice here already. Having spent several years working with cone bass/horn mid & treble loudspeakers, I would second what ESO said. Get a pair of Altec Model 19's, sit back and enjoy the music. Alternatively (as suggested by drlowmu), build/purchase a pair of high efficiency, full range driver (Lowther, Feastrex, Fostex, etc.) loudspeakers and augment bass with a pair of subs or H-frames.
Good luck,
Bob
Chris,
The two-way will get you part way there, but you may grow tired and want more. If you like to build amps, I'd try to run a full range speaker that does not absolutely need to be biamped, just so you can test your amps full range.
If you want an efficient horn system, listen to the Danley Synergy Horn offerings at some pro sound dealer, then, follow all the DIY threads on building a home audio version. Study the subject. If your budget allows, consider purchase of Danley products, maybe one that rolls off the extreme top gradually. It will take some time, maybe another 6 to 18 months to have decent home DIY audio choices, but I am sure several bright minds will produce a home version.
The Danley Synergy design has MANY positive attributes. Its a point source, has a uniform phase response, and can pass a square wave, etc., which other speakers can not do. For fill-in bass below it, a Danley tapped horn design might also provide the goods, with a smallish footprint.
I really don't know exactly how, and precisely when, it will come about, but I think tapped horns, Synergy Horns, are a great new loud speaker alternative, and it can develop into the future of high efficiency, high performance home audio. The potential for performance is so good, it makes me want to pay full attention to its development.
So, my "heads up" to you is to be fully aware of the Synergy Horns, give a listen, and if appealing to your musical tastes, give it consideration. I hope this helps you (and others) some.
Jeff Medwin
Find and drop the $$$ on a good pair of Altec Model 19s and get back to collecting music.
Starting ground up from scratch can be very rewarding, but to do it well is going to take a lot of time, money and probably more than a few failures along the way.
my 2¢
eso
They were a carnival of American decay on parade, and they had no idea of the atrocity they had inflicted upon themselves.“ Henry Chinaski
.If you are serious then you have to say how much you are willing to spend and how much room you have.
Real bass horns are HUGE and a no holds barred horn system is very, very expensive.
Without knowing your budget and how big they can be this is a waste of time.
.
Edits: 02/11/12
Fair enough.
I spend most of my time building tube amps, but I really don't have the speakers with work ideally with them.
As a system, I have been considering something like a 511b Altec horn or better the Acoustic Horns 300 ($2,700), a pair of mid compression drivers ($500 to $1500). Bass horns probably will have to wait until the kids are a bit bigger and I can take over the family room. Given that, I would probably like to run a direct radiator bass bin up to 800 - 1000 hz. The highs likely need to be supplemented by a high frequency horn.
So, I am looking at an electronic crossover at 800 to 1000 hz into a bass amp and bass cab. Above that a mid horn and driver and a tweeter though a passive crossover and SE tube amp. This will likely run, as a system, into the $6,000 to $8,000 range without the electronic crossover and amps.
Before I start simply buying stuff and hoping it all works out, I am wondering if I am on the right track or if others have systems in this general range that have been sorted out that I could copy.
I have heard Jeffery Jackson's home system with Goto midranges, bass horns, 75TL amps, etc. and It is really cool, it sounds like an actual event is going on in the room. I would just like to capture a tiny bit of that sound.
If you like Jeffrey's system, then build a system like his. You can probably get 90% of that without the Goto drivers. Get some LeCleac'h horns from him and some reasonably priced drivers and work on integrating them together. I'd look at modern JBL drivers (2435), vintage JBL (2440, etc), Radians, B&C, BMS, etc. For woofers I'd look at new or vintage JBL's or B&C's with neo magnets and shorting rings with the right parameters for midbass horns and/or larger but similar drivers for a vented box.
You could do a nice 3 way this way - JBL 2435 on a ~300Hz Le Cleac'h midrange horn to anchor the system, a JBL 2226 in a vented box going up to ~500hz, and a super tweeter to relieve the 2435 of high frequency duty - maybe a Fostex tweeter. This is what I'm building right now, but I'm using a JBL 2445. You could also make that a 4 way system by adding a larger Le Cleac'h low mid horn with something like a JBL 2482 or a 6 or 8" cone driver, have the 2435 not go quite as low and have the woofer stay below 200 or 300Hz. This is what I'll step my system up to as I get the time, and eventually I'll ditch the vented woofer entirely for some kind of bass horn. If you integrate it all correctly, any of these could be a great system with the performance increasing with the complexity but definitely getting into diminishing returns.
Altec model 19 might be a option but not really SET friendly. Check the classifieds I listed some conical mid-horns and mid-bass. Might work for ya selling at my cost.
Just out of curiosity, why not the 19? I've heard them with both sand amps and low power tubes.
Kyle.
Having owned 3 pair model 19 I found they do best with about 30 watts. Low power SET to me the bass never sounds right.
.
As I read your post I was thinking you might consider talking to Jeffrey and then you referenced him. You might consider the field coil Lowthers he is building. I don't think anything he would build using compression drivers would fall in you price range but they might. He has a nice line of wooden horns
.
I am not sure Jeffrey is making anymore wood horns. I could be wrong, but I think the venture with Victor didn't turn out so well. Luckily, I got mine made when the iron was hot.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Chris, If you like rock , pop , jazz- 511B and 811B with 15" will be OK not great but you won't find better for electric guitar and presence and if the woofer is by any chance altec 416, copying Altec 19 with it's crossover is the best way to go with a chance to fully recoup your investment when you'll be ready to move on and a respectable performer overall. Unfortunatelly for classical and more demanding music it is less attractive proposition. I helped my friend with similar setup consisting 511B with 806 and altec 411-8A woofers with default Altec 500hz crossover. Its terribly colored but I'll be damned if I heard so much presence on guitars and vocals of rock band from "neutral " trax horns. I made for him altec default correction circuit but he prefers it rough ;)
kjh
Straight axis horns with Active Xover so you can do steep slopes, PEQ, and time delay. If the woofers got too big, then got to a Tapped Horn Sub and more power.
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