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Here's a set of horns I finished building a couple of weeks ago. They are approximately 2.75" deep and 90° with a OS-like throat, I say "like" since I approximated this by hand sanding. The driver is P.Audio BM-D440. I'm guessing the horn has CD characteristics and a 1µF capacitor levels this nicely. Final implementation will see a 2nd order roll-off added around a kneepoint of 3-4kHz. These will supplement the HF on top of my mid-size Karlson SK8 with Fostex FF225WK.
IG
Follow Ups:
IG,
I must apologize to you for accusing you of copying Oleg Rullit's design. I'm still very new to DIYing and had never seen a horn made from a block of wood, that still remained a block of wood even after the horn was cut out, until I posted photos a little over a month of some horn's I purchased from Rullit Atelier of germany!
I've now been told and have no reason to believe anyone is lying, that this has been a common practice over the years for DIYers. Again I apologize, I can only tell you that for a " common practice " I've never, ever seen one single DIY horn designed speaker that incorporates horns like this, until I had seen yours and they looked very much like what I purchased. I was wrong accusing you. Please forgive me...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns.
========================================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils." - William Shakespeare
I'm very intrigued by your project.
Great workmanship.
I just completed a K8 also.
I'm using a vintage Frazier driver.
If I understand, you are crossing over at 3-4kHz using a 2nd order?
Are you using a 2-way crossover calculator to determine component values?
Are you time-aligning by positioning the horn further back on the cab?
I'm curious how you did the final tapering for the driver and mounting?
Sorry about all the questions.
I was planning on using vintage cone tweeters but your project is making me consider other options.
Thanks.
tubav
Thanks! Show us your K8 when you feel it's presentable! :)Crossover still has to be worked out. Right now I only have a 1µF series capacitor on the horn, which mostly acts as a constant directivity compensation circuit. You can see the effect on the response curve I posted, where is flattens the response nicely. I tried it with the roll-off also showed on the response as well as 1.3mH on the Karlson SK8, which worked decently enough. I will implement a 2nd order filter around 5kHz to start and modify to what sounds best. As for component values, I use the formulas for 2nd Butterworth function and adjust for real-life part values, but often have to play with final parts values to optimize the crossover acoustically instead of nominally going by impedance values alone.
I have time-aligned the horn on top of the SK8 using HolmImpulse. When both units have their faces on the same vertical plane, setting the horn back 4.5" got me nicely superimposed impulses.
Final tapering, you mean the throat? It's oblate-spheroid-like, as I approximated this by hand. The driver is bolt-on type and I used the alu plate as an adaptor. I might re-do that one though, as I'm not entirely happy with the 1" hole I drilled.
As for a HF unit for you Karlson, make sure you use something with a wide dispersion, as beamy tweeters will bring attention to themselves and be a mismatch for the K8. This here 90° conical ~OS-WG is a good match and has wide dispersion. Adding the OS-like throat made a difference. The Karlson-slotted waveguide (K-Tube) works very well with it's assymetric pattern and high vertical window, a couple of PVC tube lenghts, a dremel and some small files and sandpaper is all that's needed to produce a pair. Very cheap and relatively quick to make. Drop by the Karlson forum or ask here if you need advice or a cut-out pattern.
IG
Edits: 11/25/11
Ignore the negative comment of the previous poster. He's a constant complainer of anything that isn't in line with his narrow viewpoint. Also, be prepared for him wanting to get the last word in, it's his nature.
That aside, I've seen similar horns on various forums over the last several years and I think that any advancement is welcome. You did a great job and they look great.
Was there a particular form you followed or did you come up with the profile yourself?
Still bitter from your SETriodes days or what kyle?
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns.
========================================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils." - William Shakespeare
I guess that would be the last word.
I started out by making a purely 90° conical horn. The choice was mostly motivated by the simple manufacturing technique I had in mind, which was to drill 1", 2", 3" and 4" holes in 4 layers of ½-inch BB-ply and then routing a 45° bevel to join the steps into a smooth plane. This worked well enough despite the BB-ply actually being more like 7/16" thick. Some hand sanding smoothed this out nicely. It was then suggested to me that I may want to add an OS throat for a better transition of the wavefront from the driver to the horn. I did this with an extra layer of 3/4" BB-ply, profile mostly done with dremel and hand sanding. I must say it did improve things and probably loads the driver much better.
IG
That I posted photos of a few weeks ago here! At l;east give credit where credit is due...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns.
========================================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils." - William Shakespeare
Quit promoting your new business interest here. And, your boy didn't develop anything new there and has no credit deserved. It's not even the same profile for chrissake.
Bass is supposed to sound big. 6.5" is not a woofer size.
How can I be advertising a business that hasn't started?
I made a full disclosure here that I am in talks with Oleg about becoming a dealer, but as of today I am just a client with products I've purchased and loved so much I HOPE to become a dealer. However until I receive inventory, I'm just a very satisfied client, period.
"IF" I was trying to pull a fast one I didn't have to make my disclosure about trying to become a dealer did I? Get over it Badman, you're usually a lot more gracious than this.
For now I'm a client, period. The moment I get inventory I'll immediately change my status ---{ as promised }--- and I'll stop talking about products I represent for purposes of integrity. Up until that happens I'm simply an estatic client, talking about some of this best products he's ever heard or purchased...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns.
========================================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils." - William Shakespeare
> > For now I'm a client, period. The moment I get inventory I'll immediately change my status
Ton,
On 11/23 you wrote "When these drivers arrive and I have them setup and working, I'll notify all the audio forums I visit I'm now a Rullit Atelier dealer and that these Super AERO 8 drivers, as well as Oleg's ICs will be available for audition in my home on an appointment-based schedule. "
That makes things pretty clear. Just because you don't have stock, in hand, doesn't change the direction in which you are headed. You need to stop now, or any credibility you have left will disappear.
Thank you for your immediate cooperation.
Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...
"Looks Like You Just Copied Oleg Rullit's Horns"
I had missed the above accusative post title the first time around.
The functional designs of the above Rullit horn and mine are different since mine is ~OS-conical and Rullit's is, well I'm not sure what, but obviously different. There are not many ways around the final form factor though, especially for an apartment-dwelling DIY'er.
These are some cool horns in any case Tom and I hope you enjoy them.
IG
IG,
I've apologized to you here: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/15/159228.html
However I want to thank you for being so gracious. I'm still very new to DIYing. So much so in fact that I don't understand why you find them so different. I'm sure that when I purchased these Oleg said they were conical, but as I don't know what the OS in OS-conical means in your horns, so I don't know how much that makes them different.
Other than that to this DIY newbie what I see is:
1) They were both made from a block of wood.
2) Both are conical.
3) Both use compression drivers.
To my limited understanding they seem more alike than not. Again I'm sorry for the accusative post, but for a techique that others claim has been around so long, I haven't find a single photo except yours and mine that reassembled each other so much. Now while I have absolutely no reason to think anyone is lying, I just don't understand why I've never seen any horns like this before now "if" this techique has been around so long.
As for my original post. I am the type of person that absolutely hates it when someone copies someone else's design without giving them the credit they're due!! That's the reason why I jumped on you when I thought that was what you did. However despite the fact that no one has provided a single photo and I cannot find a photo other than yours and mine, I believe the others are being truthful when they say this is not a new idea.
So that means what I originally posted was wrong and being a man of integrity requires I must publically apologize in the same place I accused you of doing wrong. With that my apologies once again. I was wrong for what I did and need to ask your forgiveness. While nothing ever justifies making a wrong accusatory comment. I hope knowing the reason why I did so, somehow assuages the sting of my doing so.
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns.
========================================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils." - William Shakespeare
How can Oleg Rullit claim this as his own? Its a very common DIY horn and the most basic of flares.
Oleg didn't make that claim, I incorrectly did so myself. While I've seen many horns made in a conical ---{ and other shapes }--- from wood before. Except for IGs and Oleg's I had never seen anyone leave the wood in the shape of a block after making the initial horn shape inside the block.
EVERY other horn from Edgarhorns to Zingali's Omnirays that I've ever seen a photo I've ever seen goes much, much further and makes the outside, follow ---{ to a greater or lesser degree }--- the inside shape! These two horns looked like a block of wood with a horn in it---that was very different indeed.
That said, being a DIY newbie I'll accept I was mistaken despite the lack of photographic proof, and I'll believe as Tom Brennan states " DIYers have been making horns like that for years. " Still I have to say that I find it very strange I've never seen one photo of this type of horn being done before seeing IG's horn if DIYers have been making horns like that for years...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns.
========================================================================
"The man that hath no music in himself nor is not moved with concord of
sweet sounds is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils." - William Shakespeare
My horn has been produced by stacking 5 layers of BB-plywood, as has been done numerous times. Many DIY'ers do the horn on a lathe, which I do not posses and found it useless to shape the outside of my horn in any way; cutting squares and trueing the sides on a bench sander was the easiest way for me to produce that. If anyting, it equates to more mass which can only be good. Mr. Rullit probably operates under the same concerns, but simply because it's logical and effective. 90° conical was also born out of the ease of the manufacture process I though about, heck I did not even know if a 90° conical WG was a good idea to start with as so many seem to be narrower, say 60°! :)
Rullit's horns certainly appear to be something other than conical, but photos have been know to be tricky. Is there any significant lenght of the profile on which you can rest a straight edge or ruler flat? OS = oblate spheroid, the "rounded" shapes at the throat and mouth of an otherwise conical waveguide. Geddes seems to be the leader on the theory. I approximated an OS throat on mine, but not mouth.
IG
If I had my large (800hz) oswgs to do over, I'd do them more like yours. Faster and easier (though, my work paid off in that they're extremely nonresonant but light for such large horns)
Bass is supposed to sound big. 6.5" is not a woofer size.
I also like how these are quite inert from the BB-ply construction and they weight about 6lb.
How are your OSWG's built?
IG
Link attached- filler and more filler, mostly epoxy.
Bass is supposed to sound big. 6.5" is not a woofer size.
Cool, but I can see how that'd be lots of work! My lil' horns are not full-blown OSWG in the sense that I don't have the radius'd mouth termination though.
IG
I think there great. What is really cool I think is anyone even a keen teenager can have a awesome horn system these days. Some battery's chip amps , some ply and dads router, jigsaw etc.
I have being dreaming about building wood conicals and soon hopefully I will get the chance. More and more I think people are realizing too that good well scavenged cone drivers may even do better then compression drivers specially in all but the treble frequency's.
It is looking more and more to me especially in the treble frequency's that polished smooth surfaces my even be a disadvantage rather then mandatory. I am keen on working with 4 and 5 inch cones to build compression drivers too. I have seen a Siemens mid range one and of course the big peavy mid bass is an eg.
Today I am fixing something much less exiting. A little pair of technics SB/F2 book shelf or mini monitors. These as probably most older guys know have an unusually high reputation(for there price bracket) being made of heavy cast alloy that spit in half with rubber jointing.
They have 100u thick alloy center caps on treble and woofers. These tweeters are exceptionally good sounding and there horn loaded "
""The high frequency horn type tweeter is equipped with a newly developed for the F-series based on the tweeter unit 5HH17.
> > This is an exponential horn throat type, conical opening, < < has become a special curved shape to the type and complexity intermediate to smooth high frequency response
I think them being so successful the combination of loading type is close to what you have here. The expo throat being easy to get right then pure conical? And perhaps more efficient then pure conical
Tom You need to explain what profile is used. The pictures are not clear. Did you like your tweeters SQ?
by cutting felt or acoustic foam to match the faceplate. It's lossy, so it doesn't provide any gain lower in frequency than the existing cutoff, but it does reduce mouth diffraction artifacts and maintain directivity somewhat lower. Won't look as nice but will sound better.
Bass is supposed to sound big. 6.5" is not a woofer size.
Attention! ! ! Oleg Rullit - the thief and the swindler!!!!!!!!
http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160&page=2
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