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64.13.33.230
I build my own speaker cabinets so I just need information HE drivers.
I have subsonic reinforcement down to 18 hz, so deep bass is not an issue. I have 4,000 and up covered by 92 db efficient ribbons. So I need something very fast, very detailed, and very dynamic between 30 hz and 3,000 hz.
What I want is a driver that does stand up bass and cello really well. It needs to put flesh on singers and not go too sizzly on the upper mids.
More important I would like it to have approximately 91 db per watt.
Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Thanks!
"Music Matters" Help support our schools music programs.
Hey tubes:
I'm a bit over my head here as I just finished pledging the HE speaker fraternity. This concluded in buying a pair of Cain&Cain BEN single (rear) horn speakers - 97 dB - my first real HE speakers after decades in this hobby. The BEN is based on the Fostex FE208E Sigma. But my suggestions are based upon systems put together by two local audio buddies.
The first also utilizes the FE208E Sigma as a mid, and in a smallish sealed box. His two woofers are large ported boxes with one 15" B&C driver each with a crossover at 200 Hz. For a tweeter he adds a Fountek ribbon (I believe a 5") for which he crosses over about 2K Hz. His system has received many complements, including Roger Sanders when he visited recently to speak at our audio club and demo his latest electrostatic design.
The other system is put together around the FE206ESR (special version of 206 no longer available). This is installed in a rear loaded horn cabinet, similar to the Fostex plans, built by KCS Loudspeakers. He has separate woofer boxes with one Fostex 305 (12") each. The woofer is rolled off above 60 HZ at 48 DB while the 206 rolls below the same frequency with a first order 6 dB network. His tweeter is the T500AMk II. Previously he was tri-amping with Channel Island ss monos on the subs, WE 300B on the mid, and a 2A3 on the tweeter. Recently he pulled the 2A3 amps out and now drives the mid and tweet with the 300B, crossing over at 6K Hz, again with a first order network.
It was my experience of hearing these two systems, particularly the second one, that influenced me to try HE with the Fostex in the C&C cabinet. I'm still in process of selecting an amp but I'm loving the natural, detailed, and dynamic sound of these speakers.
Best of luck with your project.
Growing old is hell related former youth.
I was looking over the B&C midrange and midwoofer. Their xmax is 1 mm. Unless this is mounted behind an exponential horn, I find it hard to think they can produce any of the slam I am hearing with the Scan Speak Revelators that pull off a cool 7 mm xmax.
I want to try a highly efficient driver so I can move on to a low output push pull amp or an set amp.
I may need to wait until this fall. Right now building plinths is the focus during the dry warm months here in Nevada.
Thanks for the Fostex vote. I need to get out and find a high efficiency club in the Northwest during my upcoming vacation. I would like to hear a system like your friends to see if it has enough slam to match my Scan Speak / Peerless combo.
This would be hard to live without. Once you get a studio reproduction level speaker system, missing out on the dynamics and slam make for a less enjoyable result.
Cheers!
"Music Matters" Help support our schools music programs.
The Fostex 206e is insanely good, especially for the money. If you're concerned about slam, consider stereo subs with whatever single driver plans you use.
Based on augerpro's measurements, I'd say probally the Altec/GPA 414 could live up to this demand. You wouldn't get good power response evenness at the xo point though, as the 12" would start to beam while the ribbon's response is quite wide at the bottom of its range.
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"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
In a great box with modern crossover parts they can sing very smartly. I don't thing they will be fast enough with the 12 inch cone to work with my ribbons. I think 8-10 inches will be about the maximum I can go and get the speed I need.
I like the Dynaudio drivers, Scan Speaks, and Focal drivers and their 7" drivers will cover 40hz to 3k hz. However they are only in the 86 db / watt arena. I really want something 91 db / watt or higher. They just have to be extraordinarily fast.
Cheers!
"Music Matters" Help support our schools music programs.
Then I'd go for the B&C 8PS21 (the midbass, not the midrange).
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"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster
Very smooth rolls off naturally starting @ 3000.............. but you are asking for a tall order........30 to 3000 HZ......whoa........consider a 4 way or a crossover @ different frequency .....say..... 150 HZ. The BC is good only down to 90 but is 98 db efficient. Any way for what YOU want I would use a Morel CAW938 9" .........expensive.
"The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM
quite detailed...It just matters the dynamics..madisound.com
b&c ok
the new emminence 8" carbon fibor mid is good 16 ohm one is better
get two and do an MTM on the ribbon.
ok
have fun
-3db
The Morel 9" is a vary nice woofer but it is not a 90db unit. as above can your sub reach any higher than 30HZ this would open your search a good bit.
Borus
Right now I am using a ScanSpeak 7" Revelator driver to cover 30-2750 hz. I cross them at 2750 to a 91 db/watt MBQ titanium mid tweeter and then cross that at 10k to the ribbon. I thought I might try to get the crossover at 3-4k just to keep the mid tweeter out of the female vocal range.
So yes, I could run a lower crossover any where under 200 hz, I generally prefer to set my subsonics below 150 hz since these are big 12 inch Peerless XLS models which don't do mid-bass very well.
So I could run something 150 to 2750 and change nothing else....
150 to 3500 hz would be even better. The speaker needs to be ultra fast and detailed. I need to keep up with the ribbons or the magic collapses.
Hope this helps.
"Music Matters" Help support our schools music programs.
He was asking for advice.................first things first............do not go by what the speaker manufacturer says for efficiency ...........at best it is a guesstimate........resistors are a part of my life building speakers. Personally, I care not trying to achieve SPL below 32 HZ. Had the gentleman mentioned he was shooting for 95 decibels the recommendation would have been Another BC driver ........MOST important would be information on if he is using closed box/infinite baffle VS bass reflex/tuned port/transmission line. I only WISH the BC 8 inch was 98DB {more like 95}> The cabinet is the hard part~~~~~~> Polyurethane construction adhesive {sorta like gorilla glue liquid nails}for 1/2"and 1/2" baltic birch glued together {superior rigidity coupled with slight air gap I perceive as beneficial}. Elmers wood glue and brass screws via pre-drilled pilot holes {gorilla glue for the pilot holes} Am presently experimenting with cork/baltic birch/aluminum sandwich.
"The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM
Baltic birch is a wonderful material. Sandwiching the material with aluminum or other material sounds great. I often thought it might be fun to cut up old newspapers and use an acrylic or building glue and coat the inside with about 1/4 inch of the stuff for resonance and hf attenuation.
While my box is a bass reflex design at this time. I really want to build another set of boxes and use a HE midrange that is ultra fast. I really need speed to keep up with the ribbons or the magic will collapse.
My current Scan Speak Revelators are only 86db per watt but are very fast and warm.
Cheers!
"Music Matters" Help support our schools music programs.
I understand what you are saying...............is why I will not part with my Quad ESL 63's...............nothing like film diaphragm drivers. The B&C's ARE fast but only up to 3000............although the specs have them starting to drop off around 5000................ I prefer 1st order crossover's which limit my driver range {I have to set crossover into a tighter bandwidth} and make having top flight speakers a must. Another problem I am beset by is I like low watt tube amps {the only SS I own is a Bedini 100/100 Class A} so I do not have the flexibility you have with driver choices {Watts ARE cheap but, I am picky about that 1st watt like Dick Olsher made mention so many years ago} Scan Speak were always a cut above with their drivers.
"The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM
I love the Quads, I used to sell the Martin Logans. For me the speed and accuracy of the electrostatics were their best selling point.
I wanted to get that in a dynamic driver that could have some serious xmax capability.
Do you have a favorite source for the purchase of a B&C and which model would you recommend for say 150-2750 hz.
My Bedini 150MKII is modified with Black Gate caps in the electrolytic positions. John Bedini modified this one with Sampson electrolytic power supply capacitors.
On the coupling cap I am using a Dynamicap bypassed with a Russian teflon FT-3 0.10uf 600v piece that really airs out the amp. It sounds amazing at about 110 watts per channel sliding A/B.
Yours has all positive feedback and pure class a operation. It has a very tubelike sound to it from my memory. Low output tube amps, especially an SET design can be very seductive. The lack of feedback or carefully chosen feedback can really allow the midrange to come through unscathed.
Thanks for you feedback. This is very helpful information. I hope others will chime in as well!
Cheers!
"Music Matters" Help support our schools music programs.
Hello Sir! Would you please give me John Bedini's work/home? phone #?.................Have been trying for months to reach him and am unable to reach via Email or phone. Kind Regards.........Ken
"The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM
B&C 8PE21 8" Midrange sourced from parts express. The reason many people like horn drivers is there is NOT a lot of cone movement in proportion to other drivers hence LOW distortion {almost like we are shooting for a speaker with no moving parts..............ala electrostatics which is why they have to be so big to play loud and or deep} The less a driver moves................the less distortion can occur ........contrary to what car speaker manufacturers would have us believe. 20 HZ is 20 cycles per second ............... I am not sure my eyes can witness a diaphragm moving back and forth 20 times in one second...........and that is for the deepest bass most guys strive to achieve for complete bandwidth. Here is where I make my compromises........{even Paul Klipsch did} as my Khorns only go down to 35 hertz. For efficient bass to 20 HZ the cabinet would border on encompassing half the room. Someday I will install Altec 511's for the all important midrange in the Khorns. My idea was to hand off the driver I mentioned above to an Aurum Cantus G3Si Ribbon. I lose the ambience from a dipole design but all in all gain the SPL's and dynamic range of Horns.............everything is a compromise.
"The Sound of One Hand Clapping is Crashing by Design" HKM
Hmm... Bedini 100/100 is one of a nicest SS amps I heard.Bassy , warm and with decent tonality.I borrowed one from a friend.The amp was old and PSU really needed update but still sounded surprisingly good.My friend have tons of other amps but he didn't want to part with this one ;0)
I have a 2 pairs of unused B&C 8E21E drivers from parts express still in boxes gathering dust if anybody is interested.I wanted to swap one pair for faital M5n12-80 without much of luck.
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