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Hi Everybody,While in L.A. during Stereophile's Home Entertainment Show we were presented with the opportunity to listen once again to the Cogent horn loudspeakers that we so enjoyed at CES this year - currently outfitted with the latest revision of their field-coil compression drivers.
Well, long story short, Neli and I continue to think these guys got something going here. Making horn loudspeakers that sound good is hard - 98% of them suck, to our ears. These don't suck. They don't suck A LOT. :-)
We also dragged the camera along - so for your enjoyment here is a link to the introduction to the Cogent Report.
Follow Ups:
Something that people reading this thread might find interesting about Romy's comments above, is the fact that very soon after Romy entered the Cogent room at CES this year, he wanted to buy a pair of the DS1428 drivers. As I was taking care of the room, I was the first person Romy started pounding, to try and acquire a pair of these drivers.By the next day, Romy realized that he could not afford, or did not want to spend, what these drivers cost.
Nonetheless, Romy was in the Cogent room at least a dozen times while I was at the show, which was only until Saturday. He must have liked the company there, at least..... Too bad he later decided the speakers were not "serious."
The next thing that happened, was that Romy tried to convert a pair of his beloved Vitavox permanent magnet drivers to field coil use.
This did not work out very well, something Romy has not really disclosed on his website, even though certain people kindly explained to him why his experiment failed.
Romy never posted these exchanges on his website, unfortunately, as he obviously deemed them unimportant for "advancing audio".
As for myself, I just get more confused as to who is really "serious."
you talking about?
Jonathan,
You know very well what you did making this post and you know well how cheap it was. You made a number or similar comments before and I did not raise my voice waiting until you begin to feel shame. Apparently in your desire to create a cheap noise around Cogent you loosing a sense of really and ethics. Please go back to the line as I do not like when people use lie and deception about me in order to advance own un-noble interests. I do not know why I reply to you so soft. Probably I am giving you one time credit and a chance to shut and stop spreading idiocy about me. Your apologies are in order….
I wondering…
Romy the caT
*** Something that people reading this thread might find interesting about Romy's comments above, is the fact that very soon after Romy entered the Cogent room at CES this year, he wanted to buy a pair of the DS1428 drivers. As I was taking care of the room, I was the first person Romy started pounding, to try and acquire a pair of these drivers.
Sure, as a person who deals with horns I try ANY compression driver available out there and I have quite a few of them in my storage. Cogent is not exception and I gratefully would try them when they finish as I feel that there are some “issues” that might be addressed in there.
*** By the next day, Romy realized that he could not afford, or did not want to spend, what these drivers cost.
Really? Was it the true reason why I decided do not pursuit them at this point? Ask the Cogent guys to whom I explained the reasons and do not act like an idiot.
*** Nonetheless, Romy was in the Cogent room at least a dozen times while I was at the show, which was only until Saturday. He must have liked the company there, at least.....
I was at least another few dozen times when you were not there. So what? What else to do in CES, not to mention that to hear the Cogent was one of the reasons why I went to Vegas that year. Do not put opinions in my mouth and read my CES writhe up. Contrary to you I keep my views open and public and do not prostitute with them upon what is profitable for me at given moment.
*** Too bad he later decided the speakers were not "serious."
I did not decide that speakers were not "serious" I said the seriousness not there yet. What I find not serious is the moronic reaction of people like you who create a cheap Cogent bobble that has no relatively to reality of the Cogent Sound.
*** The next thing that happened, was that Romy tried to convert a pair of his beloved Vitavox permanent magnet drivers to field coil use.
Sure, and I’m in very minute details describe the reasons, motivations, actions and the results within my site. If you have a little more brain the just to memories the brand names then you would understand what were the purpose of the project.
*** This did not work out very well, something Romy has not really disclosed on his website,
Really? “Are you sure that “it did not work out”? Perhaps you should go back and read? Or perhaps I should inform what is the really facts: the conversion of Vitavox to electromagnet went successful and the driver sounded OK. However, the “OK” would satisfy only demands of the very limited people? Anyhow, anyone who read the there would realize that you are a full of shit in your description of the actual events. The purpose of the project was to take a permanent magnet, well performing driver, replace to it the permanent magnet with a properly designed electromagnet of the same magnetic force, keeping absolutely the same cone, phase plug, magnetic back path, suspension and so on… and then to observe delta in sonic performance between the permanent and electro magnets. As far as I concern it was one of the very few “clean” experiment and it was absolutely successful in it’s findings. I wish many other people do the same order to understand what they talking about.*** even though certain people kindly explained to him why his experiment failed.
What!!! Can you name the “certain people”? There were 8 people with whom I ever spoke about the project! It becomes too funny. Learn to stay behind your words and name who “explained to him why his experiment failed”, particularly if I do not consider that the project failed. Apparently it is too difficult for you to understand the outcome of my project, for you the successful conclusions is a pile of the driver available for sale with a verdict “buy” or “not to buy” ….
*** Romy never posted these exchanges on his website, unfortunately, as he obviously deemed them unimportant for "advancing audio".
“These exchanges”? Are you out of your mind? The only person who you know who was familiar with project was Cogent’s Rich and he was very kind and cooperative. I do not remember that we discuss with him “why his experiment failed” because for him and for me it was exploration and we never feel that it “failed”. I would like who out there in position to evaluate the result that I got in my room, without ever listing the result and without knowing the details and framework of my project.
*** As for myself, I just get more confused as to who is really "serious."
I know that you are confused and I know that in order to find out who is "serious" you need somebody to tell you what to say. So, far the only none-serious party in this saga is you, Jonathan. Unfortunately around any manufacture and any idea in audio there is always a crowd of idiots who feel that their duty is to create a cheap noise around the idea. Some of those people have quite dirty hands…. In the end, your post above was an extremely dishonorable action. Your last name “weiss” translated form German as “white”, perhaps form now and own I should call you the “Audio Asylum White Noise”
Romy the Cat
Hi Romy,Why don't we just start with this-
"Thanks for your comments. I kind of knew what you are saying. Still, this
test of mine was in a way a half ass test." - RomyThis must be a description of your "successful" test of a field coil retrofit to the Vitavox S2, no?
I believe the rest of your email is an attempt to suggest that you knew everything about what you were attempting, anyway. Would you like me to post the whole exchange for everyone to read?
As for weiss, my name, it actually has two meanings in German. One is the color white, the other is the verb, to "know".
Best,
*** "Thanks for your comments. I kind of knew what you are saying. Still, this
test of mine was in a way a half ass test." – Romy This must be a description of your "successful" test of a field coil retrofit to the Vitavox S2, no?
Absolutely not! I expanded everything in my site and might do it again but at this point I do not find that YOU are worthy any attention. The major reason is because we do completely different things in audio. I have interest in Sound and in Sound only. You have interest in detonation and supporting a chap marketing hype. Your actions, your thoughts and the Sound that you demonstrated are direct evidence of it. Sorry, I do not talk with whores about love.
*** I believe the rest of your email is an attempt to suggest that you knew everything about what you were attempting, anyway. Would you like me to post the whole exchange for everyone to read?
Hey, get a life; I’m long from an elementary school primitive thrill. I grand you rights to make public whatever you wish about me, preserving REAL and TRUSTFUL context of data. Although to ask it from you is useless, as you partially ethically deceitful and partially audio uninformed.
*** As for weiss, my name, it actually has two meanings in German. One is the color white, the other is the verb, to "know".
Please, pontificate about your “knowledge” among “other” people, or at least when I am not around….People who :know” have more respect to themselves…
The Cat
Ahh, the full moon and the golden-lips ego.
Not, really. In your case it is rather is a situation when a DJ audio manufacture tries to clean ass of a “white nose” manufacturer-wonnabe. It does not call polytrophic compression, it calls Moronic Solidarity…
I like the sound of these style horns, as long as there is no long tail (neck). Easy to bang together out of plywood too.
Hi djk,I thought I had replied to you several days ago, but I guess it did not register. Anyway...
Last fall a good friend laid some 1970s AES papers on me by Keele and Henricksen which discussed the problem of collapsing directivity of a straight sided horn near cutoff. The horns I built (in the pictures) were an experiment to test the concept by using a second break in the more important horizontal axis. I'm not sure how important this is in near field hi fi listening, but we have been very pleased with the performance of these horns. To me this is just another example of the great concepts which can be gleaned from the prior art and literature.
That's my friend Joe Svec, he ended up with two of the four of that size that I made.Joe was into photoshop when he sent me that photo. I've got another photoshop he did of a different pair, he made it look like they were on the cover of SpeakerBuilder. That set was an MTM with and an EV MantaRay in the middle, with the mid horns tilted to fire across the HF horn. Those sounded incredible.
I built them circa 1980 after reading the JAES papers you mentioned.
While big, the ones shown here sounded even better than the Altec A4, JBL 4550, RCA Ubangi(OK, better, best).
I used to have people come up to me and tell me they weren't on. (even though they were playing about 130dB). They literally sound so clean they don't sound as if they are on, even standing four feet away. You get any closer though, and you feel this tremendous pressure in your sinus cavities.
Thanks for the pics and writeup.I'm curious about the technical points of these drivers. Did you happen to hear what the operating field of the drivers is--how many amp turns?
nt
Thanks for the pics and writeup.I'm curious about the technical points of these drivers. Did you happen to hear the operating field of the drivers--how many amp turns?
Hi Bill,The field coil is rated to run between 12 and 14VDC. The nominal ampere turns at 12V is 3,650. This provides just over 20 kilogauss gap flux density in the DS-1428. The DS-1448 bass driver has the same field coil but a wider and deeper gap, and a flux density of about 18.5 kilogauss.
I've been simming a few FC motors recently--fun stuff.So you're dissapating about 100-150W of heat from the FC winding? And you find the motor structure is heatsink enough?
Cheers,
Bill
Yikes! No, the dissipation is about 25 watts in our design, which is very similar in this respect to the original RCA MI-1428B. This figure is typical of the field coil compression drivers from the old days; woofers dissipated more like 30 to 40 watts.
I guess I was incorrectly inferring your coil dimensions. What's your coil resistance? I'm guessing 14 or 16awg wire?
Bill, I hesitate to provide every detail of our commercial design. However, you are quite close.
I appreciate the work you fellas are doing and how you've remained accessable to the interested. Mo' pawr to ya.
Hi Bill, the motor is mostly open to the air, on a warm day after many hours of run time, the coil temperature reaches only about 100 degrees F.
Rich Drysdale
Mike,ironically your comments are quite diluted with the fact that you expressed the very same level of exuberance about Kharma loudspeakers or about any other line that you care.
Regarding the report. The pictures are fine but I do not think that you actually said or expressed anything in that report. What WAS surprising in that report that apparently Rich and Steve do not unload LF from that horn. It looks like they use 100uF cap that is way too little to be a high pass.., Hold on, hold on! Those caps are GE caps of 1947 and they were taken form a frigate that sunk in Perl Harbor in 1943. Those caps have very specific sonic quality that makes crossovers do not spin phases and that makes phonographic pictures to look glossier. Oh, no criticism is necessary if it was made before the birth or Mark Levinson or Michael Framer…
I meant to reply it on your blog but your systems bark to me with insufficient credential messages. What I meant to say that I that better sound require a different level of seriousness. It is not enough to demand seriousness from a manufacturer of a listener (consumer) but it require also a journalistic seriousness. I keep bitching on my site that the army of today audio journalist are worthless in their constant dripping of unused saliva and what whatever reasons you keep pushing yours to join them. I hope you realize that you might do better.
Hey Romy, Mike is presenting an honest report, the system sounded rather dismal to me the day he came over, due to some equipment issues, bad daytime electricity, and a set-up problem too embarassing to talk about. I personally went diving for those caps the last time I was in Pearl Harbor, the water temperature, conditions and time were just perfect to age them to equal conditions of the finest violin woods. Actually the crossovers aren't being used, we are using the deqx, and very happy with it.
I know you are persuing the best midbass possible, and you don't like using compression drivers, I don't know what you are exactly looking for, to me compression drivers sound far superior to direct radiators in bass reproduction, our frequency response measures well, and the detail is there, what are you looking for. We do have a problem at the crossover point to the subwoofer, Mike hears this, and now I can hear it, I think I know how to fix the problem as soon as I am able to measure it.
I spent the early part of the week listening to Kevin Brooks' system in Utah. He is using the Ale permendul drivers, and some of the best source equipment available. His horns have the same inert qualities of the tar filled Lansing Iconics, an absolutely incredible listening experience. Compression drivers just sound right to me, especially in the midbass.
Rich
Darn, wish I could have been there to hear them.Did you make it to Randy's Records? Forgot to mention they are closed both Sunday and Monday.
Sorry I missed you guys.
__________________________________________________
Boo!
Ivan don't feel bad, I was stuck in HOT, muggy southern CA while Rich was hanging out at Kevin's and luxuriating in the sound of the ALE system. Rich was nice enough to keep me up on the haps by cell phone though.
Hi Ivan, yea you could say kevin's horns sounded OK, very OK! Sorry we could't meet up, I went into the SLC a couple of times, but didn't get a chance to to look up Randy's. I get to Utah a couple of times each year, I'll see you next time, Thanks for the lead.
Rich
OT - hey Romy - do you have Kozlovsky's 1970 (not 1971) 2-lp set? - that is serious singing. (I've got it) Freddy
I have heard the earlier version of this system. As I said before- I feel this is one of the best systems..horn or otherwise, avaiable today.
I am very familliar with driver and horn design, having done the same for Yorkville SoundAs senior loudspeaker design engineer for Yorkville, I can't find another system better than Cogent. Have you heard this system?
But I like horn systems...
My opinion, but this system is very well designed.
I've heard the Cogents at the first RMAF as well as at Oswald's Mill earlier this year...properly set up, they are in the lofty category only achieved by ALE in my experience.
Bill, I did not hear the Cogents in context of a proper installations and I do have quite a few concerns with the Cogents designed. I also do not feel that this or that system is “one of the best systems.., horn or otherwise, available today” as I fell that “better sound” is made by different level of global affords. It might be fun to discuss the Cogents, perhaps along with the Cogents guys, but it would require dealing with realty of the fact instead of hiding behind the audio religion postulates. Also, it would be a complete waste as anything more intelligent then “I love you, you love me” will be vandalized at this site.
What the ?????
Keep your ears and your mind open.
I do like Steve and Rich, and consider myself lucky to know them.As far as the sound of Cogent- it is only my professional opinion.
Bill, it was exactly my point. You loving or liking of specific people is not necessary empowers you assess the results that they get, not to mention if you use your “love” as the only assessment criteria. Your personal linking of the Cogent boys has absolutely nothing do with observing the Sound that Cogent get or with evaluation of design decisions that Cogent made in their drivers and their installation. If you have any “professional opinion” then it should be hardly based upon who you line or who you friend with. Let demonstrate a little more respect to Sound and to Actual Result instead demonstrating the blind loyalty to you friendship. Trust me, doing it you degrade and the Cogent’s effort and yourself. I know, I know it is stupid to ask about it at AA, the forum that is based upon mutual ass-kissing but if you not wiling to demonstrate in your messages anything besides a respect to Results and to Sound then do not bother replying to me as I would not find your messages worth reading.
AFAIK. One pair that I know of are along side a full blown ALE permendul system. Poinz made referrence to that setup in a previous thread, but he didn't hear the Cogent set up.Some inmates here have actually heard both systems side by side, and yes the Cogent is a very good [and afforable] alternative to ALE....as far as it goes. This is not a full range driver, but the extended range would allow a 3 way system....maybe.
The plasma tweeter works pretty well with it...as does the ALE low end.
I just wish they would release them to the market and finish the LF driver. :)
Hi Dave, we are quite happy with the design and performance of both drivers, and won't make any substantial changes in the near future. We are still working on sourcing some materials for the bass driver, designing a web site, working on a supplier and final design for the horns, designing a logo and side plate for the drivers, and a few other odds and ends. When we offer them for sale to the public, we want to be able to make timely deliveries, and be able to offer a complete turnkey system if necessary.
Rich
Hello Dave,you wrote "The plasma tweeter works pretty well with it.."
Which model / brand of plasma tweeter you're talking about?
I used a hornsystem with a Corona plasma tweeter for about 5 years. With the Corona I lived about 10 years in several configurations. It's an fantastic tweeter, but you cannot hook it up into a system easy.At least one other comment about the sound... Yes it's very fast and sweet and detailed. Sometimes to fast. IMO you every time can hear the plasma tweeter because it don't have the ability for integrating into a system. The reason is, IMO because it's massless diaphragm, the air.
Dave, I do not know who Poinz is but jeneraly I hardly care what people say out there as they very rarely not contaminated with the popular audio-disease that I descried in the following article:
http:// "my URL goes here" /Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2546
Also, it is unnecessary to hear anything “side by side”. If people do not know how it should be then they begin to “compare”. Let leave “comparing” to the “white noise” intelligence…
Romy The caT
The same individual has AG Duos in the other room...and Trios w/ subs upstairs. A speaker that, IIRC you considered pretty damn good in the past.Agreed that comparison is a problem when the context is limited. In this case the context includes drivers and systems of the highest audio quality.....absolutely not anything on the level of Stereophile type gloss radar....which is stuck in what you call 'white noise'. I like that term BTW.
The only thing is that I don't entirely subscribe to the 'absolute sound' standard for audio, because it fails to recognize the fact that the recording process introduces way too many variables into the music reproduction chain to present us with a verifiable absolute.
I think it works partially [mostly to judge tonal balance and timbral accuracy], but not absolutely. And who cares about listening to a room for christsakes.
Everything in audio is a comparison. Otherwise we wouldn't know anything from the other...and everything would be right.
Hi Romy,Well, there are only a very few pieces of equipment we like and no, we don't spare the saliva telling people so. We just let it fly and drool all over the things... ;-)
I think we differ in whereas you are going for the Ultimate One, we are going for the Ultimate Dozen or so.
Anyway, we maybe should continue this elsewhere before this all gets deleted. Your place or mine?
I agree, to me these are the most interesting speaker project currently begin floated. I read each morsel of news with great interest. Tony
Jean-Francois Lessard 2A3 PP amp
Marantz 7T Preamp
Klipschorns w/ALK xovers
Sony CX350&CX-230 cd changers
MSB link DACIII w24/96k
MSB digital director
Luxman PD-272 TT
Technics M85 Cassette
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