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In Reply to: RE: I have a Z1. Why use an external DAC? posted by Mr_Steady on October 20, 2016 at 18:16:10
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...and it ain't bad. But I prefer hi-res PCM anyway so DSD or DSD over DoP doesn't really concern me.
DoP is not a selling point to me. I think I would rather have a dedicated DSD dac, and a dedicated PCM dac. Thorsten recently linked an addendum on audiostream. See it? It talks about how a versatile dac winds up converting formats back and forth four or eight times over. It's hard to win in this hobby.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
The DAC per se has nothing to do with DoP. A DSD DAC handles DSD not DoP. DoP is just a method of transporting DSD within a PCM "wrapper" from one device to another using existing 24/176.4 capable SPdif, AES/EBU or USB interfaces. So the DoP package has to be unwrapped (as it were) before the DSD data is presented to the DAC for processing. Think of a zipped file as a metaphor, once unzipped you have the original file.
It seems unlikely that DoP would be used within a component for the internal distribution of data. The SPdif etc. interfaces are not used for this role. To use DoP for this would also entail the machine taking the original DSD file, packing it as a DoP one then immediately unpacking it so as to revert to DSD in order that it can be processed by the DAC. That does not make sense to me.
Note when I refer to the DAC I am talking about the chip (or other implementation) itself, not about a box of ports and components.
It is not unreasonable to imagine that machines with inadequate processing horsepower or with other inadequacies may unpack the file whilst thereby creating anomalies e.g. excessive jitter, which result in inferior sound. But this would be a fault of implementation rather than with the DoP protocol itself.
Yes I realized I misspoke after I posted. I understand that DoP is used on the server side of things, not the dac side. I should have said I may prefer something like a DSD server/dac, or PCM server/dac as opposed to an all in one system.
It does seem unlikely that a system like the HAP would use DoP internally, and it wouldn't make much sense, hence my comment about it. What I also find confusing is why if the HAP does not use DoP internally, and if it is capable of USBA 2.0, then why would it use DoP to an external DSD dac for native DSD files. I may have to post the question on the Sony forum. The Sony engineers are pretty good about answering questions on their forum. Still the question for me is moot since it is unlikely I will be connecting an external DSD dac, but one never knows.
Thanks for the link.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
" why would it use DoP to an external DSD dac for native DSD files"
The answer is pretty straightforward. Sony have no control over the DAC selected by he user (the box in this case, not chip). Virtually all DSD DACs that have inputs which accept DSD do so by using DoP. It is now the effective international standard. So Sony selected the only commercially viable option.
Even given your earlier scenario of a dedicated DAC for DSD (and another for PCM), you would still have to find a way of getting the DSD data to the DAC from the player and the primary contender would be DoP. As far as I am aware the only alternative would be HDMI which, aside from its own non-ideal aspects, would involve packing the DSD data in accordance with the HDMI protocol as apposed to that of DoP. Six of one and half a dozen of the other (do you use that idiom in US English?).
A server/DAC? Well there are DSD streamer DACs around e.g. dCS Rossini which also does PCM in the form of upsampled DXD.
Earlier you spoke about (avoiding) multiple conversions. DoP does not involve converting the DSD data, it just defines how it is packed for the carrier medium.
It does seem as straightforward as that. DoP has become the standard, probably due to the Apple OS only recognizing PCM.I don't know what would be involved with Sony adding a choice of "raw data" as a USB output. You would think just a check in the box of a menu. The raw data standard being usable for native DSD.
Yes we do use that idiom. We are not so far separated by a common language. :)
The link below is informative, but even it didn't give the downside of DSD. It just said DoP was less than ideal. Have to thank Kal for that.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Edits: 10/22/16
Thanks for the link. Isn't dealing with the "less than ideal" the motif of the audio hobby?
Always and in every circumstance.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I received a PM from an Asylee about how difficult it was to set up output to an external DAC. I told him I didn't really know since I won't get my Yggy until tomorrow. Woohoo!
I found the following in the online manual for the HAP;
"Using a USB digital audio device (USB Digital Output)
While a Sony USB digital audio device (USB DAC), such as TA-ZH1ES or CAS-1, is connected to the EXT port on the back of the HDD AUDIO PLAYER, you can output audio signals to the connected USB digital audio device for music playback.
1. Connect a USB digital audio device to the EXT port on the back of the HDD AUDIO PLAYER.
2. Select [Settings] - [Audio Settings] from the Home screen.
3. Select [USB Digital Output].
4. Select [Auto]."
Doesn't seem too hard.
Then there was this for DSD output;
"DSD Output (DoP) settings
While [USB Digital Output] is set to [Auto], you can turn on or off the DSD Output (DoP) function.
On:Enables playback of music files in the DSD formats with the connected USB digital audio device. Select this item if the connected USB audio device supports DoP transfer.Off:Disables playback of music files in the DSD formats with the connected USB digital audio device. Music files in the DSD formats are skipped for playback (factory default setting)."
Also not too hard.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
"Even given your earlier scenario of a dedicated DAC for DSD (and another for PCM), you would still have to find a way of getting the DSD data to the DAC from the player and the primary contender would be DoP. As far as I am aware the only alternative would be HDMI which, aside from its own non-ideal aspects, would involve packing the DSD data in accordance with the HDMI protocol as apposed to that of DoP."Another, imho, more straightforward option is USB.
Edits: 10/21/16
Yes, USB is an alternative. However this thread is in the context of the choice of Sony in implementing their DSD input using DoP protocol.
Of course virtually all DSD DACs will accept DoP via a USB input. However the number accepting raw or native DSD via USB is comparitively limited. Checking it appears that there are currently around 420 DSD DACs available * (a large number that surprised me). However of these only around 80 models will accept raw or native DSD data via USB (all in addition to DoP via USB).
My argument is that Sony selected DoP as a commercial necessity given that they have no control over what DAC their player will be connected to. I think that these figures strongly support my view.
* HDTT's master list of DSD DACS
I am not arguing. Just saying.
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