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This is very, very, odd to me....
So, the word is that these SACDs are highly compressed and sound pretty crappy.
The ones to get are the Steve Wilson "remixes" which supposedly, sound really great, and are not compressed.
I noticed the word "remixes." Did Wilson get the original 24 or (heaven forbid) 72 track 2 inch "rough" mixes and completely change the content and come up with all new interpretations of the original recordings from the ones that went to vinyl?
Typically, (especially at that time), compression was added at the pressing plant during EQ when building the lacquers.
Or, was the great sin of compression applied during the building of the DSD files, (from what presumably be), the 1/4" master? If so, - then WTF??? and WHY??
Or, - is Yessongs the only set that is highly compressed, and that was done in "re-mixing" "repair" studio where they (cheated) and added the overdubs during the mixing of the 2 channel, 1/4" tapes?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Follow Ups:
Maybe I can help.
I have everyone of Steven Wilson's Yes projects. And for that matter, I have everyone of his remix/remasters (Tull, King Crimson, Gentle Giant etc).
-The remixes were ALL done from the original multi track tapes.
-IMO, I stress that, IMO, they are very, very well done. ANY remix is a reinterpretation, but NONE of his are massive departures or reinventions.
-EVERY one of his projects includes a FLAT transfer of the ORIGINAL mix, the one that "went to vinyl".
ALL in 24/96.
Ok, now the splash of cold water..the SACDs, are ALL created from 24/96 files. Probably the same ones that Bob Ludwig created back in 2011, which have now been released on HDtracks.
Avoid the SACDs like the plague. 100% digital creations. The master tapes were never touched. They are screaming loud, massively compressed..JUST like the remastered CDs.
Hope this helps.
Yes, - it does help quite a bit.
I appreciate your analysis very much.
I apologize for more questions, - but weren't there SACDs created from the Steve Wilson remixes, - namely Fragile, the Yes Album, & Close to the Edge?
For me, as a songwriter/producer + audiophile: it does get a bit confusing with terminology: & how we talk about this stuff. To some degree, building hi-rez files from reel-to-reel final mixdowns is also called "mastering" or "re-mastering." Where-in the olden days, - reel to reel 1/4" analog tapes went directly from recording studio to the "reproduction" plant, (like K-DISK), and "mastering" was referred to as the cutting of the lacquers: applying EQ & compression there.
If I have you correct, - there were no SACDs made from Steve Wilson's re-mixes?
Thanks again for your comments.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I consider it remastering. Sure there is a lot of editing going on. Reducing noise, expanding dynamic range (like my old dbx 3BX) an little EQ and I'm even getting brave with subtle changes to the stereo image - sometimes bringing things more to center (early Beatles) or doing a little cross cancelation to move a sax a litle to the left. Mostly playing with it until I feel it is right and locking in the mix. I'm using and Learning the Izotope suite of products. Kinda fun actually.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
changed. Good to be tolerant, but it also causes a lot of confusion.On commercial products, once purchased, the recording has been through 4 or 5 generations of re-dos. Very few HiRez re-dos from the original studio involve the final mix 1/4" 2 track reel-to-reel tape.
Since the process of creating/building/mastering the DSD file involves violating the original intention of the artists on the project anyway, - the last thing that any "good" engineer SHOULD want to do is violate the second or third master that was already altered from the 1/4." The mastering process for cutting lacquers for vinyl, (setting up the EQ), is very very different than burning a glass CD master.
How many "interpretations" of the original final mixes are too many? And, how many times has another format been released based on an already terrible, vinyl copy? Like any other format, there is a ton of SHITE vinyl recordings out there....
It's cool that you're doing some remixing. I call, (and I think that many other engineers, etc), what you're doing Remixing. If you don't like the sax part in a particular piece, - just kill it. But of course, you're certainly violating the intention of the artists. I remember Roy Orbison's label creating a "greatest hits" CD that cranked up Roy Orbison's voice, and turned down the instrumentation. But, Orbison was there, overseeing the mix.
I find it a gross and flagrant insult that a record label would hire a "clean-up" artist like Steve Hoffman to intercept a recording from the artists/producer before it reaches the pressing plant; and do things like "warm-up" the recording, re-order songs, shorten the length of songs, cut out a song, turn up or turn down the volume of certain instruments, only to make the end product more commercially palatable.
Getting back to Yessongs. I just wish that Steve Wilson would've done the whole YES catalog into DVD-A/Blu-Ray. And, certainly one of the most popular Yes albums has to be Yessongs. Given that even the vinyl version was horrible, - you'd think that it'd be a fun challenge.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 03/24/16
Sorry if it has been mentioned in this thread, but Audio Fidelity has to legit Yes SACD titles out. Going for The One and Close To the Edge, with purported analog to DSD lineage. Additionally, Mobile Fidelity has the Yes Album and Fragile.
I like the way MoFi works..they do all their "mastering" in analog THEN capture to DSD.
It is all very cool projects, indeed.
nt
and DVD-A sounds better on my player anyway.
It does look like Steve Wilson stopped though. As a concert, it would likely be the last thing that anyone would remix to HiRez. I can't remember if I liked Tales from Top Oceans, - but I only want Yessongs. I went through phases of loving them, then hating them: now wanting to get 1 thing as a sample/archive..
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
S, I got to tell you the 24/192 of Yessongs is outstanding, and not necessarily because of the format. That was one album that always needed remastering. The multiple Atlantic copies that we've all had always sounded like a bad bootleg to me. Not the new release. It's like a totally different version. I meant to post the tests of that album, but never got around to it.
Anyone who always bemoaned the quality of Yessongs, and wished they had done it differently has got to check out the new release. For me it was like a dream come true.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Do you have a link?
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
It's the one for sale at Pono. Rhino I think. I will have to look at the file when I get home to be more precise.
BTW, the High Vibration box set was remastered by a Japanese engineer whose name escapes me. Word is that he EQ'd and compressed the hell out of it. I haven't heard it, but I'm going to stay away. I think the Rhino collection would be the one to have.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
The best way to fix this is to buy all 9 copies and set up a shoot-out.
Costing 100s $$
Lots of folks have poo-pooed on each of these variations. My take-away is that there has yet to be a good one made.
Bummer, cause it's the only one I want. I've had vinyl copies lost, destroyed, stolen over the years. And the last thing that I want to do is go down the rabbit-hole of buying several more copies to compare. Oh well...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
It would be of interest to learn why the Japan engineer compressed the Hell out of this set?
What is most likely is that the final EQ'd and compressed redbook master discs from 1997 were used to upconvert to DSD.
It is very unlikely that the engineers were able to get their hands on an uncompressed 2 channel, 1/4" reel to reel 1973 safety master as it left the studio, before going to the pressing plant & before lacquer cutting.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Sounds (no pun) logical.
Probably for the same reasons they do it to a lot of other albums.
-------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
My pleasure.
Yes, to clarify, to BEST of my knowledge, NO SACDs exist with Wilson's remixes. They area all based on Ludwig's 24/96 remasters. See the link below. Perhaps I missed something.
Shameful really. To..upsample PCM and charge a fortune. What a crock.
Well to clarify mastering/remastering..(I coordinate reissue products for a living..)
REMASTERING..to me..is a new digital capture of analog master tape, and then tasteful polishing, repairing applied.
If it is a digital source, then one can take advantage of better converters and powerful DAWs to extract maximum fidelity..in almost all cases I am fan of staying in the box if the source is digital.
In the "old days", mastering is a bit of what you describe, it was more of a straight engineering job..but it changed and we started to see the rise of "celebrity" mastering engineers who maybe put more on of their stamp on a recording then was previously acceptable.
To me, the mastering stage should be where a good, experienced pair of ears makes sure everything is in order, with maximum fidelity. The final production master should not be totally a different product then was submitted. Just my take.
Very informative- Isaak.
were the original masters not avail for the SACD project?
Do the original masters of the YES catalog exist?
Hi fantja:As I noted, Wilson provides "flat transfers" of the original album mixes on all his Yes projects, some even include original vinyl rips.
The Yes SACD box set was prepared for Japan and in many cases they have no qualms about using PCM sources. Pretty shameful, as I said.
The superb Japanese Platinum SHM series purports to only use analog master tape sources captured to DSD. But those are amazingly expensive..up to $65 per title!!
Edits: 02/27/16
Thank You- Isaak.
I own the original Altantic CDs. I will seek out the Platinum SHM editions.
control...
Intercepting the final mixes before the "master" lacquers/glass were cut at the distribution plant.
They would get 3rd parties to do things like re-order the songs, maybe cut a song, boost vocals, maybe even add compression there. This is the place where they (later) built the DSD files.
When one builds a DSD "master" from a PCM DAT, or analog tape, - It's not really so unfair to call that a re-master. Depending on the changes, sometimes a re-interpretive "re-mix."
I remember the Roy Orbison remasters, where (just my dumb opinion), they ruined them by cranking the vocals up to the point of absurdity.
At the end of the day, - I'd love to get a nice recording of the Yessongs concert: which just doesn't look like it'll ever happen. And, (again) not sure if anyone would agree, - but there was a lot of bad vinyl back in the day too. And at least some of those USA Atlantic Yes records really sucked....
Thanks again for all of your thoughts.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Thanks! for sharing- guys.
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