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Why go to all the trouble for a HiRez download when you an buy a SACD of the same for the same price?
Follow Ups:
Please understand, I am not boasting about my system. This will be a longish post. I apologize.
1) Jean Nantais Lenco Ref. MK ll Turntable.
2) Kuzma 4Point Tonearm.
3) ZYX Universe ll Cartridge.
At this point we are approaching $25,000.oo. With painstaking patience, and attention to detail, all alignments are perfect. On well recorded music, the performers are in the room with me. You did read that correctly. I am not delusional.
4) Atma-Sphere MP-1 MK 3.2 Pre-amp. All NOS Amplitrex tested tubes.
5) Atma_Sphere MA-1 MK 3.2 OTL amplifiers.
6) All Duelund annealed Silver Foil Silk/Oil wiring.
Add another $40,000.00 for these three.
7) An EMM Labs CDSA se CD/SACD player. At one point one of the best CD/SACD players available.
8) I am a speaker builder, so no advertising. Accuton Diamond Tweeter, Accuton Midrange, Powered 15" woofers, all Duelund CAST PIO crossover parts. My cost: $27,000.00 per pair.
Now we get to the point's;
CD's are unlistenable. If you think CD's are as good as SACD's or vinyl, it's your system. At this point most of you will stop reading.
SACD's are great. They remove all the flaws with vinyl. No ticks or pops. No alignment issues. No fiddling with Azimuth, anti-skate, or VTA. They sound glorious. BUT,......., never once do you feel the performers are in the room with you. Never once does your brain subconsciously tell your hand to reach out and touch the performer. But still excellent.
Conversely, my vinyl rig and system have people shaking their heads. They are amazed. Instinctively people reach out. It is quite funny. They look at me. They try to make sure I didn't see them. But I smile, and they know I did.
Now the conclusion;
A few days ago George from exaSound came by with his e20 DSD DAC. Last month he heard my speakers at TAVES. He knows what my system is capable of, and he was excited.
And finally, after only a few minutes of listening;
DSD recorded music. Downloaded in native DSD onto a hard drive (SSD is best). Played back through a DSD DAC,............
BEATS MY VINYL RIG.
Yes Yes Yes, we all know there is very little music recorded in native DSD.
We also know that a lot of DSD downloads are from analogue masters, or PCM masters.
But, but, but. We are finally there. We finally have a digital medium that can put the performers in the room with you. We finally have a way of putting goosebumps on our arms album after album.
The analogue tape to DSD downloads where as good as the vinyl originals.
The PCM to DSD downloads where really good.
Am I babbling?. exaSound has shown me that digital can be as good as analogue, and sometimes better. To answer this post properly; Hi-Rez is better than SACD, IF the recording was DSD or analogue to DSD to begin with. SACD is a smidgen below both.
Obviously the system needs to be of the highest order, or YMMV.
Billy
Vinyl Junkie, Digital Defiant (former defiant)
1. There are thousands of SACDs readily available now.
2. There are many SACDs that are not available as hirez downloads yet and vice versa.
3. SACDs can be ripped if you want to go the computer audio route.
4. Playing SACDs are easy and less complicated especially if you want multichannel audio.
5. Used SACDs can often be had for cheap.
6. Most multichannel audio releases are still only on disc, whether hirez PCM or DSD.
Depends on a couple things...
Do you have an SACD player that sounds better than your high-rez DAC?
Would you rather stream your music from a computer/disk drive or hold a silver disk in your hand.
I'm still in the second category, doubt that I'll change any time soon, or ever.
That's one of the difficulties of comparing- relative quality of Player vs DAC.
I like my Sony 5400/VSE, but would love to get a Mytek DAC, too, just to have it all!
I tend to buy "used" SACD's and 90% of the time they are cheaper than downloads.
I hate computers and all the problems associated with it.
I could not be bothered with them.
I yet never heard a computer based system sounding great (to my ears), there is something that just does not click with me (no explanations)
I do like the physical SACD booklet, everytime I play an SACD I invariably look at the booklet.
You can sell, swop or donate your SACD's.
Give me the physical disc any day. I can always generate a computer-playable file if the mood or situation calls for it. There is *nothing* better than having the original disc, IMHO...
-RW-
I will be testing that theory in January!
I wish I had a Mytek DSD/24/192 Dac to try!
I have the Mytek. It is nice but my Audio Note transport and dac play redbook that sounds better than any Hi Rez on the Mytek. Friends that have heard my system say the same thing.
Alan
I've heard that Audio Note is good.
Maybe the Mytek is lacking because of the modest price. There is a competing product that's about $4000.
I can't imagine Redbook being better overall than Hi Rez, tho, hasn't been my experience, but haven't heard any A.N. Products.
I record my own Rehearsals and Concerts in 24/96, that is way better than the 16/44 of my DAT Days.I will record the next one in DSD with Sony PCM D 100.
Woo Hoo, more stuff to compare…
I am going to compare Computer Playback up to 24/192 on my Mac 2500 Internal Dac, and my Sony 5400/VSE, using the same Titles.
Reference Recordings Engeneer says their 24/176, played back with the proper DAC is better tha DSD, or 24/176 converted to DSD.
I look forward to a week of Crazyness in January!
And yes, I suppose it will be Apples and Oranges, I don't know what would constitute a Truly Fair Comparison, but I will find out What's What with the stuff I have at hand.
Also, in Jan, my 5400 / Vse will be upgraded to the Uber Clock, another Variable to throw in…
"Maybe the Mytek is lacking because of the modest price. There is a competing product that's about $4000."I have been using a Mytek for about 18 months and am quite happy with it in my system. Here are some observations.
The Mytek has integrated op-amp based analog circuitry. If it is run using the analog volume control there will be additional op-amps in the signal path that will degrade the sound. The best way to deal with this is to either use an analog volume control in an external preamp or integrated amplifier or (what I do) run the unit with digital volume control mode. This works very well in my system, which runs balanced directly from the Mytek to my powered Focal speakers. I opened up the case and moved the internal jumpers to provide a 6 dB reduction of gain in the IV converter, reducing the amount of digital volume control that I need.
On its SPDIF input the Mytek is somewhat sensitive to jitter. When I tried a deliberately poor SPDIF connection the sound was inferior to what I got with USB 2.0.
The Mytek requires a very long break-in before it sounds its best. Others have reported 500 hours and when I first heard this figure I thought it was absurd. However, experience shows this is reality based.
Finally, the Mytek should never be used in 44/16 mode as the PCM filters come from the stock DAC chip and are not suitable. At the very least, low-res PCM should be upsampled by some means (e.g. software) to 176/24 or 192/24 depending on the input sampling rate. If possible, one will get getter sound upsampling all PCM in the computer to DSD128 and sending that to the DAC.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 12/21/13
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I completely agree
jazz1...a computer based system..done right..can sound better. never thought I would say that but my Lumin player using MinimServer through my Imac going directly into my amps sounds better then my previous setup using a Meitner cdsa-se. and SOOOO much easier to play exactly what I want...when I want it. the Lumin is light years better then the PWD I had..i am now using a PS3 to rip sacds and they sound absolutely amazing..
I can think of a few reasons:
1. Many hi-res downloads are not available as SACDs.
2. Many hi-res recordings were originally done in PCM (24 bit/44.1 kHz or higher); with a hi-res download you are ostensibly getting a copy of the original master, whereas with the equivalent SACD (if there is one), it would have gone though a PCM-to-DSD conversion process.
3. Instant gratification: it's really satisfying to find a recording you want online and be able to download and listen to it in a matter of minutes. (Or, in the case of The Classical Shop, a few hours. ;-) )
Russell
Three more reasons:
1. No DRM
2. No gas driving 45 miles to the nearest record store
or
3. No shipping charges
(But these don't offset some absurd pricing of DSD downloads.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Also there is the instant gratification of finding easily on my server vs. searching for the disc.
I had that experience listening to KPFA one Sunday.
They played something from YoYo Ma's "Goat Rodeo", couple of hours later, it was a DSD Disc playing on my 5400, and I'm thinking "How Totally Cool!"
In some cases (BIS, Chandos, and a few others), the production of the SACD involves an additional conversion step (PCM to DSD) which introduces ultrasonic noise into the recording. (Whether this actually affects anything audible is another story of course - but I don't like it on general principle.)
In my case, I'm also just at a stage of life where I don't want a bunch of "stuff" around, occupying shelf space or whatever. Nevertheless, I don't see myself not buying SACD's in the future, especially if the recording is from a DSD master.
In January I'm going to do a Comparison of PCM and PCM converted to DSD Disk,
with some RR 24/176 files, some Downloads, and DSD Downloads of identical Titles, try to see what's up with the differences.
My Mac 2500 Tube Preamp has a 24/192 Dac, needs Computer for playback, not USB Sticks.
I think everything sounds better in DSD, but RR Engeneer Keith Johnson thinks Hi Rez PCM is better. Will also be comparing Live and Line Level DSD Recording with 24/192 on my Sony D100.
Sounds exhausting…
Having a 4 box dCS player I can convert from PCM to DSD easily. Frankly I don't really like the DSD conversions as much as PCM/PCM conversions (44.1Ks/s to 176.4 Ks/s) irrespective of which digital filter I choose. Both sound very good but the DSD conversion is slightly less, well, convincing for want of a better word. One hears more space and the sound is smoother but there is a loss of solidity and I sometimes find rhythm becomes less pronounced(especially on rock music).
Of course in the dCS setup the DSD conversion uses a different cable interface (from the sample converter: AES/EBU for PCM and firewire for DSD). This does make the comparison less secure. dCS are changing the interface soon so that the firewire link becomes redundant. It will be interesting to see if my opinion changes when everything will pass along the same set of cables.
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