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In Reply to: RE: BIS SACD posted by Disbeliever on June 09, 2012 at 02:37:16
So, let me get this straight: you're complaining about the VOLUME LEVEL of BIS SACD's? And that the dynamic range is TOO wide? Surely you jest!
Follow Ups:
The fact remains that BIS is the only label I know where people find problem with volume and dynamics.
Are we know saying that all the other labels do it wrong?? and that they should follow the BIS route??
and not touch dynamic level. That's what Hi-Rez means as well. SACD format has about 120 db dynamic range according to Sony. Does it mean too much for Hi-Rez inmates?
most speakers, except Hi Eff horns fall into the 80-90 DBmW range. so achieve 120 DB on an 84 DBmW speaker requires two channels amps that can pump out 26900Ws to move that piston enough to go that loud...the most power amps in the big iron range top out around 600W so you are already a bit short on the top... We listen about 6-15 feet from the speakers, so subtract 3 db for every doubling of the distance you could be down 18 db easily form the 120 db max. there you lost 18 on top. let go to the bottom...a good microphone has a noise floor of 20 dB. and may be able to get up to 130 dB on the top. so there you already lost 10 on the bottom, a quiet studie has a noise floor around 30 dB...so you lost 30 there so the practical dynamic range of a good recording made by the best mike of the lodest sound has a reproducible dynamic range of about 84 db...ok leave a little room and you could swing a 90 DB on an exceptional system. A listening room has a higher noise floor than a studio say 35 or 40 db...so another 10 db loss. so the realistic dynamic range that one can reproduce without fiddling with volumes is about 70 to max 80 DB but then you really have to perk up your ears to hear the stuff down there on the bottom through the tinnitus you just acquired listening to the fortissimos :)a solo harp or violin in a large concert hall will be in the neighborhood of 80 db peak a player has to really push it, a piano may be banged up to 90 db a full orchestra at the finale of Wagner's may peak at 120 :) normal sound level of a solo instrument will be around 60 db. the noise floor in a good concert hall is 35-40 db. so making recordings where the dynamic range extends beyond 70 dB is not only hard but almost impractical
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
Edits: 06/12/12
There is absolutely no reason why recordings of acoustic music should have any compression whatsoever. Any decent system should be able to deal with this The biggest problem isn't with the recordings, its with the culture of compressed music and multi-tasking. People should listen to orchestral music with 100 percent of their attention. I used to turn off my refrigerator so as to lower the room noise level.
Fifty years ago I used to wish that the idiot engineers and producers who occasionally compressed recordings would be murdered. Now I see that there are many "music lovers" who are in need of the same treatment.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
not advocating for compression, just stating the realities of recordings, room acoustics, and real dynamic range of music. 70 to 80 db is pretty much all you get on playback, even if your hi res digital chain has a stated S.N of 120 db. Any wider range will make you reach for the volume control to either compensate for room noise or distortion. It would also be interesting to get some real dynamic range numbers for various pieces as they are performed in real environments. Having a very wide dynamic range available to the recording engineer is a good thing, make it possible to make the recording sound as realistic as possible. Pretty certain almost nothing has that wide a dynamic range :). As a practical matter the peaks should be as close to the max signal level as possible thus allowing the quietest passages to be well above the noise flow of the system, and give the quiet passages the maximum possible resolution. Compression is a non linear function therefore is a form of distortion.
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
Reading this thread I do not think that anybody is asking for compressed music. I think that they just find BIS SACD's to be at level that are a little low. I never heard anybody complaining about "Living Stereo" SACD's even if they are probably compressed. The fact is that BIS seems to be the only label that is controversial. I also do not find BIS SACD's to be more dynamic than the other labels. In my opinion they sound less dynamic.
The "Living Stereo" recordings should not be used as a reference to discuss dynamic range. They are great recordings, to be sure, but they show the technical limitations of the era.
The classic RCA "Living Stereo" recordings were made on magnetic tape. Because of limited dynamic range in this pre-Dolby period most of these recordings had fortissimo passages at high levels, which caused the tape to dynamically compress these peaks. In extreme cases, there is tape saturation distortion. This is obvious in the Reiner Mahler 4, for example, where tape distortion is present in every format of this recording that I have, starting with pre-recorded tape and LP. (I don't have the SACD.)
IMO, it is inappropriate to use any analog tape sourced recordings from this era as a benchmark for natural dynamic range. What you hear is not what the musicians played unless you are also hearing a lot of tape hiss, indicating that the engineer preferred noise over distortion and compression. When I was in college I worked at a radio station and used to record Boston Symphony concerts over leased lines live from Symphony Hall and Sanders Theater. The tapes we made (using Ampex full track 601 and 350 recorders) were never equivalent to the live microphone feed because of noise, distortion and dynamic compression. Today, one can achieve a high level of transparency with digital recordings, e.g. with DSD128.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I do not worry about technicalities; I just enjoy what sounds right to me.
And Yes I do have a preference for vintage performances and sound.
Lots of "Living stereo" sounds more exiting to my ears, even with all the warts.
It is like audio gear specs! do they give you an idea of how it will sound?
From my experience; no.
No, there was a big discussion of it in Gramophone about six months ago when several letter writers complained about the same thing, and they weren't talking about BIS but CDs in general.
I have often seen letter writers in Gramophone making the same complaint. "Oh, dear, the quiet passages in my CDs are too quiet. and then it gets too loud. I have to keep turning the volume up and down. Those darn record producers." Then they often go on to say that they don't have that problem with their FM tuners." They like compressed music. Fits in with their mostly small houses, small rooms, and small speakers. They have no conception that wide dynamic range is supposed to be a good thing,
Norwegian 2L has a wide enough dynamic range on both SACD & Blu-Ray, no need to continually adjust the volume once set. I agree early BIS RB CD's were very good, I just do not care for their SACD discs sound levels. No one as far as I am aware complains about lack of dynamic range on well known labels.
Edits: 06/10/12 06/10/12 06/10/12 06/10/12
Complaining about supposedly too much dynamic range!
No, I am complaining about unacceptable engineering for Home listening, if the others can get it correct why not BIS .I can see from various Posts that I am not alone .Thank you.
Edits: 06/10/12
Why don't you just compress your music?
Large DR is a good thing for most of us.
DR Why don,t you just compress your music ? another nonsense post. I have to repeat the problem only exists with BIS , I do not want to have to continually turn the volume up & down during an entire performance. No enjoyment in doing this for me, this is the downside that does not bother Fitzcalrado 215.BIS sounds very good on BBC FM radio 3 CD Review every Saturday morning,,either because they get compressed by the medium yet still sound quite dynamic,but probably the BBC have the technical ability to even out the dynamics, so I am misled into buying the disc and only find the problem when I play it at home. The solution for me No more BIS discs until they engineer them like all other labels which do not have this problem, no one as far as I know complains about lack of dynamics from Channel Classics, Pentatone, Decca, 2L etc.
Edits: 06/10/12
compression of several folders nonsense? It is easy. I think it is you who are making nonsense out of a non audiophile issue.
Perhaps you should go bac to digital radio.
Quite frankly I have no idea as to what you are on about, especially non audiophile issue ? this is an audiophile issue.Never before heard Andrew McGregor presenter of CD Review Building a Library say re BIS once you have adjusted the levels its allright, so even this very experienced presenter & reviewer remarks on BIS sound levels.
Edits: 06/11/12
I think you are pretty much alone on this one, though you might not be the very only one.
Just listened to a Naxos recording of Copland's 3rd symphony. In the beginning of the 3rd movement there is some playing that is so soft you can barely hear it. Then in the 4th movement there are orchestral climaxes that will threaten to destroy your system. I find this absolutely thrilling and mirrors what I heard live a couple of weeks ago when the San Antonio symphony did the Copland 3rd. Give me this type of dynamic range any day
Alan
Chris, you obviously haven't been keeping up. Don't you know that folks spend many, many hours of their lives getting their volume controls set to the exact, proper position? Then they go out and buy a BIS SACD, and they find out that for it to sound good they have to actually change the volume control setting. Those evil bastards at BIS!
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