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68.122.9.191
I must admit not paying a lot of attention to this. The album was mentioned here a while back, but I did not buy it until a week ago. This is a very exciting disc in many ways.First of all Ray Charles and the Count Basie Orchestra and the 'Raelettes' featured here never actually met. Ray's voice was lifted from live concerts in the UK in the mid seventies. He played with his big band at that time. The sound on the tapes of the big band as well as the background singers proved unrecoverable. In contrast Ray's voice recording was excellent. In comes the modern Basie band and Patti Austin was asked to create the background voices. These three elements were put together to create an event that never happened. The 23 page booklet described this in great detail. It's a fascinating read.
Ray always experimented with new technology. He would have absolutely approved of this say the creators, one of whom was Gregg Field, the former drummer of both Count Basie and Ray Charles!
Before you dismiss it as an artificial marketing initiative let me tell you that this works at all levels it's uncanny. It is, in my view, far better than for instance the Nat/Natalie Cole album.
Ray's voice is recorded upfront and sounds amazing. All the power, soul and funk is there. The inflections, the small effects. Wonderful to listen to. The Basie band is sharp and swings hard. There is brass energy on this disc and when turned-up loud it bites like it should. In some some systems it could potentially sound a little hard. I must say that I need to hear it on more systems to better form an opinion on whether this is evidence of the socalled evil 'PCM character' :-). The background vocals are sweet. Maybe just that tiny bit too forward in the mix. Maybe not. The entire thing sounds absolutely seemlessly integrated.
There it is. Ray Charles at his best, in glorious sound. Big band swing. Wonderful packaging, great story. Glorious stuff. You really need to hear for yourself.
Jw
Being a 2CH guy, I have not heard the surround mix.
Edits: 10/07/07 10/07/07 10/07/07 10/07/07 10/07/07 10/07/07 10/07/07
I don't recall if I bought this before or after this thread surfaced, but it's a very enjoyable performance. Though I enjoyed it better when listening to the CD layer. Was there an earlier RBCD before this SACD was released? I like to get it. Usually the earlier RBCD sounds better, even over an SACD, more so when one which has been PCM'D.
In my experience the SA-CD layer is much superior to the RB-CD (which as was stated below is exactly the same as the CD layer on the hybrid - the latter I have not listened to).
Jw
The Ray Sings/Basie Swings CD-only release is the EXACT same pcm master as the Redbook layer of the SACD release. The very same glass master is used for both.
Best Regards,Michael Bishop
Recording Engineer
To clarify the tech details:
Ray's vocal source: 15 ips mono analog reel-to-reel, no NR, of varying quality and constantly changing relative linear speed from one end of the reel to the other. Lots of band leakage.
Multi-track edited vocal/band source: ProTools HD at 96/24.
Stereo mix: ProTools 96/24 performed "in-the-box." Telarc had NOTHING to do with this mix.
CD master: Doug Sax mastered from 96/24 PT mix to 44.1/16-bit, analog path to SADiE pcm workstation.
96/24 Stereo master: Doug Sax mastered from 96/24 PT mix, analog path to SADiE pcm workstation. This is the master for both the LP and the DSD stereo program on the SACD. Telarc had NOTHING to do with this mix other than a transfer to DSD for the SACD master.
SACD Surround program: ProTools 96/24 multi-track playback through a custom analog mixer and all analog outboard processing IN PLACE OF the pcm processing used in PT for the stereo mix. The resulting surround mix was recorded to Sonoma DSD workstation through EMM Labs converters. The surround mixes were assembled and authored for SACD on the SADiE DSD workstation. I did all the SU mix, assembly and authoring.
Best Regards,Michael Bishop
Recording Engineer
I have contacted some friends and acquaintances who I know to be Ray Charles fans from way back. My plan was to "spring" this SACD on them not telling them it has digitally put together just to let them hear it unbiased. Well, my plan was foiled. Everyone I spoke to already had the *CD* for weeks or longer and anything I mentioned was "old news".
This afternoon I went over to a friend's house and we listened to his CD (he has no SACD capability) on his old JBLs (book shelf speakers from probably the 70s). Hey, it sounded good. My friend also has this *wonderful* CD box set compilation of Ray Charles' Atlantic recordings offered by Rhino. Something I'm going to get myself. The book that comes with the box really defrays the price of admission.
My point here is that Ray Charles devotees *love* the CD, content and sound, *as is*, no complaints, just pure adoration and are appreciative to the bottom of their shoes that this disc exists. My tiny sampling has shown, thus far, that us "audiophiles" often (not always) do what we do best, over analyze to the point of missing much of the music.
This disc is da bomb---especially in multi-channel -:)
Robert C. Lang
""audiophiles" often (not always) do what we do best, over analyze to the point of missing much of the music"
It is absolutely fine to analyze. It's fun. What would not be good is to put aside this album because you do not like the sound. That, indeed, would be missing something. Being an audiophile is an 'and' thing.
I really did not like the RB-CD (see below) which I simply had to buy to have a copy we could play in the car etc.
Jw
Agreed 100%.
Note that I said *us* audiophiles. I would never trade places with my "only for the sake of the music" infidel friends :-). But the occasional “exposure” can be quite refreshing!
Robert C. Lang
Personally, I found the Basie band somewhat overwhelming and a little schmaltzy on some of the tunes. Not that Ray never made a schmaltz record on his own. Some of the tunes did work great, I agree, but if your appreciation of Charles runs more to the hard R&B blues side, or the smokey jazz side, you may find this a bit too much.
""schmaltzy' I would not call it, but I hear what you are saying. This is not the smokey jazz or the hard core R&B side of Ray Charles. Remember though that these vocal tracks were lifted from a concert series he did with his own big band at the time (mid 70's). In that sense this album is true to form.
Jw
*****if your appreciation of Charles runs more to the hard R&B blues side, or the smokey jazz side, you may find this a bit too much.******
No real argument here. I hint at that in comments I made elsewhere. But you may find that Ray Charles, himself, set the tempo and delivery style. That is where and who he was in 1975. Long gone were 1955 and 1965. Charles was great in the in the 50s *and* the 70s just as surely as Louis Armstrong was great in 1935 and also 1955. But there, in both men, was clearly an ongoing evolving of their greatness, a "renaissance", if you will (see below), which took them to a different place at different points in their careers.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I found "Genius Loves Company" "a bit too much" (I could not have said it better myself). But I find the content and the delivery in Ray Sings Basie Swings for Ray, "the Raelettes", and the Count Basie Orchestra to be *extremely* satisfying, especially when put in perspective of where Ray was in circa 1975.
Interestingly, yesterday I found another Ray Charles Lp in my collection titled "Renaissance". I have not listened to it yet. (I don't even remember it). It was released in 1975. The name of the label: Crossover
Robert C. Lang
.
Great music, maximum points for effort but this mix has been run through the mill with digital filters to the max and digital mixers all adding to the loss of realism in sound and this lost realism is unfortunate.
Sounds dead, no genuine transiants of instruments just loud or quite, even the instrument do not SOUND REAL OR as if they are in your listening space, no real detail etc...the life has been sucked out of it. Allmost the same argument we had re result of vinyl against bad cd against SACD
This has not been produced as a high-end product but one for the general population with crap equipment to listen on. Very disapointing and not true to Telarc's old philosophy and quality of sound.
Again a great idea, very well executed re time put in and artist co-operation but not real, should have been engineered by audiophiles with audiophile quality not mass market in mind which is sadly a waste.
I would love to hear the original tape....that probably would sound real all be it lost quality. Most of the old tapes were fantastic recordings....i.e Barry Belafonte, the weavers [carnegie hall] etc etc
Did you have/take an opportunity to compare "Ray Sings Basie Swings" to conventionally recorded Ray Charles music, especially music originally released on Lp, but also on CD or SACD? That's what I have been doing as part of my listening process.Likewise, I have found that the "Count Basie is Back" on the 88 label is a nice gauge for the Basie orchestra to help see how well (or poorly) this marriage really is.
It's too bad that there was no way to disguise the advertisement that shouts "Ray Sings Basie Swings" was done through substantial digital manipulation because there are steep biases and expectations to neutralize from the outset. I know in the near future when I share this recording with friends who are life long Ray Charles lovers (almost none who are audiophiles) I will down play the digital input stuff and allow them to just to listen and see what they say.
Please understand that I am not, in anyway disparaging your opinion, because I, myself, could/do have bias because I want so much for this release to be successful.
In fact, the more I think about it, when I do play "Ray Sings Basie Swings" for friends I will do so without spot light and I will play it simply among other recordings that I have such as old Lps (my see comments below), "Ray Charles at the Olympia" and even "Genius Loves Company", that I really don't like at all. In addition, to my opinion (which I believe in this case is well grounded because of my life long exposure to Ray) I will see what dye-in-the-wool Ray Charles connoisseurs have to say.
Robert C. Lang
Just heard the 2 channels version and I have to admit that I don't find it that good, I have many big band recordings that sound just so much more realistic, especially when it comes to tonal quality.
Now why should the 2 channels be so inferior to the surround version?
Questions, questions, questions.
jazz1
The stereo mix was ALL pcm performed within ProTools.
The surround mix started with the pcm source multi-track through all-analog outboard and analog board to DSD.
The effect you heard on the brass in the stereo mix is now quite minimal in the surround mix.
What system do you have?
I am lucky to have
Martin Logan Statements and CLS's
Kondo 211 monoblocks
Audio research amps and pre's
Ken Ishiwata built sacd/cd player also Audio research
Oracle turntables/ Graham arms
Benz / Lyra carts
etc
I also thought the same with the previous Charles rebuild..duets, not over digital but lacking life and ambiance between singers except on one track. As if he was just doing it and not enjoying himself, probably not the sound or case in the studio or on the master mix but the cd is dead, vinyl is not much if any better.
You may want to include the description of your system in Inmate Systems.
Robert C. Lang
Thank you,
...and it's painful to listen to. Way overdigitised like you found with the SA-CD, bass sounds like it's articifially boosted and so out of whack sonically with the rest that it's almost like it was pasted in afterwards by someone who never listened to the entire thing. The voice was flat. The brass sounded metallic.The SA-CD did not display these traits, though as I said the treble has bite. I hope to listen to the vinyl some time soon. Maybe it has more of the 3D imaging you were hoping for.
Wonderful system you have btw.
Take care,
Jw
HowdyThe stereo is but a pale shadow of the surround version.
-Ted
nt
The stereo mix was ALL pcm performed within ProTools.
The surround mix started with the pcm source multi-track through all-analog outboard and analog board to DSD.
The effect you heard on the brass in the stereo mix is now quite minimal in the surround mix.
Best Regards,Michael Bishop
Recording Engineer
I have only listened to the disc once+ but I smell Grammy Award nomination or win written all over this recording, especially for Production and Engineering and may be other categories. If it is so honored this time the Concord/Telarc group will be justly deserving unlike when a few years ago the Concord “Ray Charles: Genius Loves Company”, I felt, riding a tidal wave of sympathy for Ray Charles garnered a fist full of Grammy Awards at the expense of a most deserving Usher. After only one listen I can say, safely this new release is far more “real” to me than “Genius Loves Company”. Yes, I am wary because this collaboration is almost too good to be true. But on first listen I must say I am profoundly impressed.I found Ray Charles’ voice to be most real, unexpectedly so. And while I had no intention of doing so when I first sat down to listen at the completion I was compelled to dig through my vinyl collection and retrieved a few Ray Charles Lps and 45s. I found four Lps and three 45s. (I undoubtedly have at least twice that many in my collection) And I must admit I spent as much or more time listening to these old recordings than I did the SACD. And to be sure those Lps sound as good as I have ever heard them. And most sound damn good! But one thing became all so clear and that is in no way did those Lps capture the fullness, richness, and passion (although see below) of Ray Charles that seemingly approached what I heard in “Ray Sings Basie Swings”. Heard live Charles’ voice was literally soul piercing for lack of a better description. I believe the SACD approached that level for me (although not with the “soul” or energy of some of the old recordings which has more has to do with the stage of Ray’s career at the time and not recording “quality”)
Now some will say that I need to spend more bucks on my vinyl rig or spring for some 200-gram audiophile pressings of my Ray Charles vinyl collection or both. Or I should get a life. Well, I have no intentions of changing any of the above especially if “Ray Sings Basie Swings” holds up to my scrutiny, as I fully believe it will.
While going in I had reservations on whether Ray Charles’ voice would be reproduced in a way that was truly authentic, I had far less reservations on how the Count Basie Orchestra would sound. I only have one recording of the current band; the SACD on the 88 label and it has become a demonstration disc, of sorts, for big band genre. And here, too, in “Ray Sings Basie Swings” the orchestra does not disappoint. I was specifically listening for the quality of the Butch Miles on drums and while the spotlight was never shone on Miles as it was in the cut “Whirly-Bird” on the “Basie is Back” SACD the sound quality, while not quite “there”, was close indeed. I do agree with Joel regarding the “bite” of the brass, but I have not determined that yet to be a positive or a negative.
Of course, the ultimate measure of the success of this SACD for me is whether a true and flawless synergy results from such substantial digital manipulation. It’s going to take more than a single listen for me to come to a final conclusion, especially since I was probably listening more for “this and that” and not the totality of the music given the uniqueness/novelty of this project (not to mention the hype).
But as much as I grew up in and around Ray Charles’ music I consider myself an awkward neophyte when it comes judging the “authenticity” this release. Can this release pass as the real deal? A litmus test for me with regard to this question is my Uncle Willie who took me to my first Ray Charles concert and is a genuine Ray Charles hound and contemporary. If *he* says this music sounds real then in my book it is. If it sounds bionic it will not get pass Uncle Willie.
One oddity about this recording is the unusual disparity of sound quality between the two-channel and the multi-channel. Others have also mentioned this and perhaps your explanation is sufficient, although it "seems" to be more than just a "pcm" thing. My experience with Telarc releases has usually been while the two-channel recording is very good to excellent, the multi-channel was also excellent but even more so! With this release the two-channel sound quality seems good but clearly not up to the level of the multi-channel. But the two-channel does have its moments of excellence. In one track (I don’t remember which one) I was almost fooled into thinking that distinct music information was coming from the sides even though I knew I was listening to the two-channel recording.
I do hope this release is a resounding success, both artistically and financially. For one thing I already want more. In listening to my old Lps a common thread I noticed was Ray Charles’ voice was consistently strong and recorded very well. But the background musicians, while clearly talented were not so well recorded and most often sounded thin or “wiry”. The Count Basie Orchestra in those instances may be a natural. As I was listening to “I Don’t Need No Doctor” from one of the albums I could not help but imagine Count Basie kickin” in accompaniment. I would love to hear and see a re-introduction to the public some of the pre crossover music of Ray Charles when he was, for many, his most penetrating, edgy, and creatively unfettered, without regard to a wider audience. And while I completely agree with the liner notes that in the 70s Charles was at his “interpretive” best, the best of “Ray Charles” “own” music was behind him. In fact, for many by the times the 70s rolled around, Ray Charles while fanatically revered, and still a “hot ticket” (e.g. Stevie Wonder today) was already in the “hall of fame”, was honored legacy, but with his most exciting music behind him. In addition, to some more of these songs from the 50s and 60s I would include Charles’ “America the Beautiful”, which for me, he has sole “ownership”. In fact, I would title such a release “America the Beautiful”
Robert C. Lang
I agree in many parts with your comments, mine is not to argue but discuss [not sugesting you are just commenting upon mine]
comments re CD and SACD stereo only.
Agree re Grammy.
Firstly let me say I agree with your comment...I did expect a lot as I love Charles's stuff, thus probably an excentuated disapointment.
Rays voice does sound good in many places but lacks passion, for a better word. I am sure in real life this would have come accross but in this recording.....?I feel this is the final print effect and not the original recording. I must say it is far better than the duets.
Again a great comment from you. Thanks.
15k is a problem but a bigger problem is the center channel, an aesthetic nightmare, unless I buy another house with a separate music room?? Then we are not talking 15K anylonger.
Life is difficult!
Howdy
A while back I posted about going to a phantom center channel by having my preamp modified. It works great for me and with more experience I'd still do it again, but I understand it's not the best solution for everyone.
-Ted
nt
Best Regards,Michael Bishop
Recording Engineer
Just kidding, of course.
In any event, just (minutes ago) I received a package from Telarc that most certainly contains my copy of "Ray Sings Basie Swings". In just a minute I will tear into the package with heightened anticipation.
Robert C. Lang
especially considering the technical and musical coordination it must have taken to create it. This is the second album I have of the current Count Basie Orchestra (Eighty-Eight's - Basie is Back). It's wonderful to hear a really good big band again - the trumpet section is spectacular.
IMO the composition is more Basie than Charles (except for his voice of course). I wonder if the two groups had ever collaborated if the sound would have been similar or more soul fueled rather than jazz oriented.
But once again I absolutely agree it's a listening experience not to be missed.
Len
You may want to check out the vinyl version too (link below).
"Evil PCM"....priceless. :-)
Regards,
Alex
Alex are you recommending analog now ?
...my vinyl budget is almost entirely spoken for with all the new Blue Note re-issues from Music Matters and APO coming-up ...
I should have attributed the 'evil PCM' comment :-)
Jw
... just the people who abuse it ;)
... cause if you think the SACD is good (and I agree, it is), the vinyl version will blow you away. PCM master or not, this is one fine sounding record.
John Crossett____________________________
It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.
....I really like the Ray Charles album....one of these days I might have to just press 'BUY'
Jw
.
--
Keep your ears honest: Listen to live, unamplified music every week.
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