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In Reply to: Re: Wrong in several respects posted by jazz inmate on January 24, 2004 at 13:55:57:
The retail pricing of the Blue Note SACDs (excepting Blue Train) is exactly the same as the CD versions--go to the BN site and check. I also did a quick check on Tower.com--aside from the Norah Jones hybrid SACD being 24 cents higher than the standard Redbook version, the rest are priced the same. Perhaps Blue Train (and probably any other deep back catalog release) was probably a poor choice for release at this point if the costs mentioned are accurate. The existing price point for the recent RVG series is midprice ($11.99 MSRP, regularly less than $10 at retail), so a hybrid of the same album at $18.99 MSRP is a tough sell outside of audiophile circles (and I've always viewed BN as more of a collectors label than an audiophile label), and I don't think there is any way they could release a hybrid at midprice right now.I'm sure the AR department at BN is under pressure from various influences to find the "next Norah Jones" but I don't see how that relates at all to their decision to continue to release or not release SACDs. While you--and apparently only a few others if BN's declaration of poor SACD sales is to be believed--would like to see more SACDs from the Norah Jones windfall, perhaps for the continuing health of the label that money is better spent on nurturing new talent like the next Norah Jones, Medeski Martin & Wood, St. Germain, etc. that appeal to listeners outside the dwindling hard bop collector base that BN is known for? I'm sure if the SACD releases were a runaway success (or even marginally successful) the decision would be different, and I would assume the sales expectations of these SACD titles were in line with other comparable releases and not Norah Jones. Mr. Cuscuna and others at BN have been doing this for a long time--give them some credit as businesspeople who has been able to keep this label afloat instead of insinuating that he has some axe to grind with SACD in general because the numbers don't add up. My father was a partner in a European jazz label some time ago and there are hard decisions to make on a daily basis, and I'm sure it's doubly difficult being accountable to EMI when the major labels seem to be wondering if jazz & classical even have a place at their table any longer due to the low sales volume. While I didn't spend all that much time at the old BN BBS when it was still active, it seemed to me the overwhelming majority there would have preferred a couple releases from the back catalog as opposed to a single SACD re-release for the same amount of production cost. Could it be that BN is simply listening to the majority of its customers and not the small but vocal minority of SACD supporters? If the numbers mentioned are to be believed (an extra $20k+ in production costs yielding only 1000-2000 additional sales), then a hybrid SACD at the standard price point is simply not doable right now, though I personally would support a premium priced $25 SACD product if they choose to go that route.
I've read your whole trojan horse theory before, and I have to say I totally disagree this could ever happen. As a former technology analyst at a major investment bank, I spent a lot of time dealing with both the entertainment and consumer electronics/technology industries, and to describe the relationship between the two as frosty would be overstating how positive it is. The CEA filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of Napster during their trial with the RIAA--need I say more? You make it seem as if the music industry will decree to the CE industry that it's time to stop making CD compatible devices and switch exclusively to SACD only players, and they will listen. That simply won't happen. CE companies will continue to produce what customers demand, with the IP concerns of the content providers being of secondary (or tertiary) concern. The whole copying/CD burning/file sharing genie is out of the bottle and is never going to get stuffed back in by SACD or any other format. The music industry needs to react to this disruption to their value proposition with something better than what they have now, and I'm of the opinion that for the mass market that probably isn't a new high resolution format at the same price level as existing CDs but instead standard CDs at lower prices (witness what has happened in the UK for example).
Follow Ups:
> > The retail pricing of the Blue Note SACDs (excepting Blue Train) is exactly the same as the CD versions--go to the BN site and check. < <You can walk into any retail store and find the CD. It is cheaper than the SACD, assuming the retail store even carries it. I don't think the BN site accurately reflects pricing, availability, or customer access.
> > The existing price point for the recent RVG series is midprice ($11.99 MSRP, regularly less than $10 at retail), so a hybrid of the same album at $18.99 MSRP is a tough sell outside of audiophile circles (and I've always viewed BN as more of a collectors label than an audiophile label), and I don't think there is any way they could release a hybrid at midprice right now. < <
BN could if it wanted to, but it doesn't want to.
> > I'm sure the AR department at BN is under pressure from various influences to find the "next Norah Jones" but I don't see how that relates at all to their decision to continue to release or not release SACDs. W < <
Well, BN just signed Van Morrison and Al Green and released an album by each of them. That just isn't conguous with the catalog of the label.
> > I'm sure if the SACD releases were a runaway success (or even marginally successful) the decision would be different, < <
There is no way they could be a success without hybrid SACDs *replacing* the CD versions as single inventory. That is why I say the perceived failure of the BN SACDs was self-fulfilling.
> > and I would assume the sales expectations of these SACD titles were in line with other comparable releases and not Norah Jones. Mr. Cuscuna and others at BN have been doing this for a long time--give them some credit as businesspeople who has been able to keep this label afloat instead of insinuating that he has some axe to grind with SACD in general because the numbers don't add up. < <
Well then, what's your theory about why Cuscuna did not replace the CD inventory with hybrids, and why he judged SACD sales so harshly without even attemptin to help those sales? I've followed the decisions at BN very closely for about 10 years now, and had some contact with Cuscuna, Tom Everett and others at the label. I think I have a pretty good read on the reasons behind the decisions--and with regard to reissues, these reasons are all in Cuscuna's head. I don't mean to sound too judgemental of him. Any producer at a label will stick with his guns and reasoning. I just think it's worth making the point that there is a disconnect in the logic if Cuscuna is refusing to release further SACDs because of "poor sales" that couldn't have benn anything but poor due to his refusal to use the hybrids as single inventory--and at the same time he is releasing six "Connoisseur" titles that will also fetch poor sales.
> > My father was a partner in a European jazz label some time ago and there are hard decisions to make on a daily basis, and I'm sure it's doubly difficult being accountable to EMI when the major labels seem to be wondering if jazz & classical even have a place at their table any longer due to the low sales volume. < <
Cuscuna is on record saying that EMI stays out of BN's decisions as long as BN stays in the black (out of the red). The label has a lot of autonomy and i know for a fact that if Cuscuna wanted to release more SACDs, he could. EMI is not involved in the decision. Frankly, thanks to miss Jones, BN is the darling of the EMI execs.
> > While I didn't spend all that much time at the old BN BBS when it was still active, it seemed to me the overwhelming majority there would have preferred a couple releases from the back catalog as opposed to a single SACD re-release for the same amount of production cost. < <
Then why not Kevin's proposal: release the connoisseur series as a batch of hybrid SACDs. Voila--everyone's happy. The label spends a bit more, but thanks to Norah Jones, it can afford to. All of the connoisseur sales will be SACD, because that's the only version available.
> > Could it be that BN is simply listening to the majority of its customers and not the small but vocal minority of SACD supporters? < <
I think enough of the die hard BN fans (myself included) communicated to BN that we would buy hybrids that BN decided to do a batch of SACDs. At issue is the policy of having those SACDs marketed alongside cheaper CDs that had been around longer, the failure to use them as single inventory hybrids, and the susequent refusal to release more SACDs due to "poor sales" of discs that were doomed to poor sales from the outset.
> > If the numbers mentioned are to be believed (an extra $20k+ in production costs yielding only 1000-2000 additional sales), then a hybrid SACD at the standard price point is simply not doable right now, though I personally would support a premium priced $25 SACD product if they choose to go that route. < <
Production costs of SACDs will go down over time as cheaper DSD production tools are made available, and sales will go up over time by marketing of those SACDs as single-inventory hybrids.
> > I've read your whole trojan horse theory before, and I have to say I totally disagree this could ever happen. < <
It could if the labels aggressively pursued it. The decision is theirs to make.
> > As a former technology analyst at a major investment bank, I spent a lot of time dealing with both the entertainment and consumer electronics/technology industries, and to describe the relationship between the two as frosty would be overstating how positive it is. < <
Why is the decision anyone's but the record labels'?
> > The CEA filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of Napster during their trial with the RIAA--need I say more? < <
Obviously that just shows that the electronics manufacturers are all too happy to give consumers what consumers need. If consumers need SACD players, the electronics industry will make those as well--that's been proven already.
> > You make it seem as if the music industry will decree to the CE industry that it's time to stop making CD compatible devices and switch exclusively to SACD only players, and they will listen. That simply won't happen. < <
It eventually will if labels stop using red book altogether and stop releasing CDs.
> > CE companies will continue to produce what customers demand, with the IP concerns of the content providers being of secondary (or tertiary) concern. The whole copying/CD burning/file sharing genie is out of the bottle and is never going to get stuffed back in by SACD or any other format. < <
I agree with you, but I think record labels have made almost no effort to use their own genie and get their own wishes granted. If they were more proactive [with SACD] they would give the trojan horse model a fighting chance. We'll have to agree to disagree as to whether it *could* work. But clearly the labels are not aggressively pursuing it.
> > The music industry needs to react to this disruption to their value proposition with something better than what they have now, and I'm of the opinion that for the mass market that probably isn't a new high resolution format at the same price level as existing CDs but instead standard CDs at lower prices (witness what has happened in the UK for example). < <
The UK isn't the problem. It's the mass piracy in places like Asia and Eastern Europe that is jilting the record industry out of a fortune. As for SACD there is no reason it has to be more expensive than CD in the long run. But all new technology is expensive, relatively speaking.
I had to laugh when I saw what Jazz Inmate wrote:"I think enough of the die hard BN fans (myself included) communicated to BN that we would buy hybrids that BN decided to do a batch of SACDs. At issue is the policy of having those SACDs marketed alongside cheaper CDs that had been around longer, the failure to use them as single inventory hybrids, and the susequent refusal to release more SACDs due to "poor sales" of discs that were doomed to poor sales from the outset."
Why is this funny? These were originally going to be single-layer SACDs! I remember the phone call I had with Blue Note back then... I almost choked on my coffee when they said they would be single layer discs. I got all over them. When they finally changed their mind and went for the hybrid, I breathed a heavy sigh. I figured they'd delete the RBCD and these discs would sell. Has any other company done what this company did with their SACD releases? I don't think so. I think they aimed for their foot and pulled the trigger.
BTW, Jazz Inmate, in another post in this thread, I mentioned something you might not have known: Michael Cuscuna was not very involved with these SACDs. In fact, he didn't even get a chance to hear them until promos came in. I still don't think he has any SACD gear yet. I almost brought mine down to Stamford so he could hear then but he declined my offer. :> ) I still don't know who made the call on the titles. I don't think it was Tom Evered either.
Kevin
Kind of a moot point dontcha think? The fact--as I clearly said--is that we all chimed in that we would buy hybrids.And it doesn't surprise me a bit that Cuscuna was not involved with SACD. Just one more CLEAR sign that he wants nothing to do with it and that the first batch was more of an excuse to let him continue to have nothing to do with it than a valid attempt at launching an SACD "series".
> > And it doesn't surprise me a bit that Cuscuna was not involved with SACD. Just one more CLEAR sign that he wants nothing to do with it and that the first batch was more of an excuse to let him continue to have nothing to do with it than a valid attempt at launching an SACD "series".Au contraire, not a clear sign of any such "excuse"! Michael was not *asked* by Blue Note to work on the SACDs and it was not because of any anti-SACD feelings on his part. Don't read that into it... it simply isn't true. I called him to get the straight answer and he is pretty sure that Tom Evered picked the titles and that the only title Michael was asked about was the Charlap date. Apparently Sony was also involved in picking the titles (weird). Michael still does not have an SACD player (a fact which surely makes it hard to be the "producer") so he was not a good choice for them.
FWIW, in the early days of "SACD vs. DVD-A", Cuscuna's only comment was that he had heard a multi-channel Jazz recording on a professional set-up (and I don't remember which format) and that he didn't like it. I think he joked about Jazz being a stereo format. Even that should not be taken as anything but a joke.
BTW, I found out something in the conversation about other ways Sony subsidizes SACD and I plan to write about it later.
Kevin
I don't think Cuscuna is anti-SACD per se. But unless he became a fan of SACD--enough to say, by a player and recognize the advantages of the format, for starters--he would never really get behind the idea of spending a premium to do an SACD series. He cares what BN fans are saying and he cares what the competition does, but not enough to change his plans for the label's reissues--certainly not when it comes to SACD. Hopefully we can agree on that last point.As for picking the titles--I'm sure he didn't, and I'm sure he didn't care, regardless of the Charlap title. Tom Evered even said on his "SACD" announcement thread that he didn't want the thread to be used to request titles from the '50s and '60s. That's Cuscuna's bread'n butter. The message was clear. And so it should come as no surprise that no more SACDs are forthcoming. If they do come, it will likely be 5.1 mixes of Van Morrison and Al Green, not high quality transfers of Lee Morgan and Herbie Hancock. I just hope through some miracle that Michael Hobson decides to jump on the SACD bandwagon and we start seeing BN SACDs from Classic Records. Bernie Grundman does SACD? Now that would be something.
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