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I'm looking into going solar and will probably go with Solar City. I see it as a triple win; better power to my gear (maybe), save money (for sure) and do the right thing environmentally (icing on the cake).
I'm posting in hopes of hearing some audiophile testimonials.
Several recording studios around the world (Jack Johnson's may be the most well known) are now full solar but it looks more like marketing or a concern for the environment (nothing wrong with either). I could find no discussion regarding sound quality. A pro studio is going to have much higher current demands than most audio systems, so at least I know the newer solar systems can handle this kind of load.
Our system will be able to provide plenty of juice since it's designed around our two large rooftop AC units that keep us and the critters alive during the Phoenix, AZ summers.
I did some searches on AA and couldn't find much other than "a friend of mine switched and says his system sounds better" or "many inverters are noisy so forget it"; stuff like that.
I'll certainly post my experiences once the project is complete. I'd like to be there by May when I'll really start to reap the cost and sonic (maybe) benefits. It's also when (May through October) power quality is worst with everyone around me running their AC units full on.
Please stay on topic. I don't want to this to turn into a debate about the environment, cost efficiencies (or lack of), economic risks of Tesla/SolarCity, etc; just how it relates to audio sound quality and any technical insights (for example the potential inverter noise issue).
Thank you.
Follow Ups:
nt
Just throwing this out there, but one thing that may have a place in your system is a power regenerator such as one like PurePower makes. It takes whatever crappy power coming from the wall, converts it to DC, charges on-board batteries with the DC, and then turns it back into sine wave AC. In effect it is the second pure sine inverter mentioned in the article Adam linked to. It would allow more flexibility within the house on where you employ it. Just an idea ...
Thanks. Yes, I'm very familiar with these units although I've never owned one. The better units appear to be universally praised by audiophiles. It always seems there are another areas in my systems that require further investment with greater returns for the money spent. Hope to get there one day, at least for the low current racks (everything but the amps).
Edits: 12/04/16
the myriad devices in your home (and in your audio system) that generate noise in the AC.
If one can find a competent 'licensed' electrician and has a bit of patience and an electrically 'up to code' home, there may be hope.
Turns out that on most circuit breaker boxes, the electrical phase is alternated between circuit breaker as you go down the rows.
240 AC coming into the box, two 120V phases and ground.
Put all of the BAD stuff on one phase and you good stuff on the other.
Won't work if you live in a city, your next door neighbor is on the output side of the same transformer and has all of his bad stuff on the phase you choose for audio, so I haven't tried it.
See my response to the information Adam provided. The two inverter solution is intriguing.Thanks.
Edits: 12/03/16
in return the power company "eases up" on your meter , and slows it down; so much so on mine it actually spins 'backwards'. My bill for the last 3 months has been averaging approx negative $9.00 each month.
Of the 18 solar panels, I harness approx 18,000 watt hours per day; enough to power 1,800 ten watt light bulbs for roughly one hour. Since May (when they were installed) I've harnessed over 5 million watt hours; enough to power roughly 4,000 homes for one hour.
In case anyone's wondering, the cost to pay for the panels monthly is about a third less than my original electric bill was monthly.
The electric company power is used, as it is used that spins the meter. When your panels create more power than you use, that extra pushes back to the company, also pushing your meter backwards..
Electricity is all instantaneous force.
nt
Doesn't Solar City lease a simple grid tie system? Do they include batteries?Inverters and even charge controllers can create RF noise. I read a couple articles about this in QST Magazine geared toward HAM radio hobbyists. RF noise from certain charge controllers can be a PITA..... and HAM radio operators are of course concerned with RF noise affecting radio reception.
RodM who owns Audio Asylum has a solar system for his home and by his calculations, it's far better to outright buy (or even take out a home improvement loan to buy) vs. lease.
Good luck.
Edits: 12/02/16 12/02/16
Thanks Abe. Yes, you have to be on the grid for AC once the sun goes down. The grid costs supposedly are offset by the juice you will be pumping into the grid when you have an excess (massive excess for us in the winter since we aren't running the big AC units and running gas heat; usually doesn't get very cold here) so you are only paying the utility (in our case APS) the $22 (I understand most utilities charge less) grid use fee.
Yes, Solar City has their "battery wall" (does not replace a wall in your house, just a slab that's outside). That's an additional cost and is meant only as a backup for blackouts as I understand it.
Thank also for the reference to QST; I'll check it out.
Yes, I agree with Rod; my calculations tell me the same but only until the federal rebates start to expire (2019). I understand you get $9k from federal and in AZ $1k. If you don't pay enough tax (we pay almost no state and fed tax) to use it all in one year, you can roll the balance forward.
These guys are giving you good advice. I live in AZ, an APS customer. I did my own grid tie system before Solar City was around. When they started in AZ I was curious on how they structured their leases and looked into it. Doing your own is better, was then and is now, but the numbers change year to year. The cost per watt now is about 1/3 of what it was when I did it and back then the payback was 6.5 years. Last time I looked at Solar City at about 8 years it significantly favors them.
If you have a pool you can do a standalone for that. I swapped out AC recirculating pump motor with DC, run it directly off of panels. Payback for that was 1.5 years and again, cost per watt is much less now.
Regarding electrical noise question, I haven't put a spectrum analyzer on it, but the inverters talk over the AC. And although I don't detect it on my audio equipment (which does include power conditioners), I have picked up a noise increase on other equipment. I think that at least some of it is the inverters, but it is just a guess.
Green stuff is an on-again off-again hobby of mine. You are welcome to contact me offline.
Fred, I'm not fully understanding grid tie systems. Are they typically battery-less (at the home)? If they ARE in fact battery-less then one shouldn't have to worry about the charge controller creating noise as there are no batteries being charged via DC. Is that correct? So the only concern might be noise from the inverter?? Thanks.
Yes, that is correct, no batteries, no charge controllers and it is probably over 95% of the systems you see on homes and businesses. When the grid is up, they supply to the grid and a separate meter records what they produce. When the grid goes down, they shutdown. At night the home or business relies on the grid. And the power companies buy back what is not used during sunlight and charge you for deficits and what the homes and businesses use at night and very cloudy days.
A lot of the inverters also report what they produce and send it across the grid to a local translator to the internet. That was what I was mentioning as some additional noise. I had forgotten about the fidelity of the synchronized sine waves they produce. I would assume the fidelity is mandated and documented.
I used Enphase micro-inverters, one per panel, converting 24 volts DC to 240 volts AC. They tend to be more efficient when part of the array is shaded and a bit less expensive in wiring. The leasing companies, I believe, tend to use larger system inverters with strings of panels in series converting higher DC voltages to 240 volts AC.
Thanks Fred. Your experience is very helpful. I may take you up on that offer.
Same but not to your extent. I have also been very interested in this stuff since the Whole Earth Catalog days many decades ago.
I really liked the story in the corner of the pages. A friend did too, tried worm farming.
Lol, dig. I was going to have a tilapia farm in my backyard. No complaints now but those were the days; endless hopes and dreams.
Have friends in Hawaii that did that, but are too attached to the fish to eat them.
Good on ya, VV!
As you say, the challenge is going to be keeping the output of the inverter low in noise and high in sine wave fidelity. These things synthesize the AC waveform from DC, and the quality of the sine wave is everything to an audio application!
Below is an excellent explanation of what's going on. Talk to your vendor, find out what the distortion and noise level ratings are, and what kind of sine wave is delivered, for the inverter that they are proposing for your setup.
Thank you Adam. Your attached article is exactly what I was looking for, specifically the true sine wave vs modified sin wave inverters. The double inverter solution, one smaller true sine for recording studio and audio (I have all those critical circuits on a separate 60A sub-panel so hookup should be less complex) and modified sine for everything else. I'm guessing an added bonus would be complete isolation between clean (audio) and dirty (appliances) circuits.
A big concern is how a modified sine would effect my Hammond organs. The mechanical tone wheel generators are driven by one synchronous AC motor. I'm sure, by law, the solar 60Hz will be spot on (absolutely critical for pitch) but what kind of artifacts would that funky waveform create?
I'm guessing once the system is installed I'll be taking measurements and tweaking like mad.
As more of these systems are installed, one day I see an "audiophile" true sine inverter as a viable commercial product.
Regardless of my sound quality concerns, I'm going ahead anyway (who doesn't like saving money and helping the environment at the same time?). If the grid ends up sounding better than solar, I'll simply switch to the grid when listening or recording.
:-)
/
What inverter(s) do you have?
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
nt
Dirty Power Lobby.
Grunge and Harmonics indeed!
Apologies for a slight detour but years ago I borrowed one of those "noise sniffer" devices and checked through the outlets for my audio system. Confusingly the socket exhibiting the highest noise was also amongst those producing the best sound when a component was plugged in.
I tend to remain sceptical on the subject of mains conditioning products.
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