 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
76.176.186.161
Some say the source, others say the speakers. Some might say the amplifier (or receiver).
And after you add the first piece, what happens from there?
It's largely subjective. What's you preference?
Follow Ups:
It easiest if I just list what I am most thankful for in the sound I do have now. This was a limited budget over time, a morphing. Also my musical education and listening skills have changed for the better too. I have attended RMAF 10 years straight and pretty much have seen it all. The most memorable product one year was not the $250,000 MBL system, but a set of floor-standing 2-ways with Revelator drivers for $1500. Caveat emptor.1. Room. I have a basement for listening. Priceless.
2. Speakers--whatever sounds best to you. But I would suggest full range, even if headphones. I play bass. Love Bach organ. I need full range. So I have sub/sat setup. (I want to upgrade to GR Research DIY line array, when time/$ allows). Subs used, US made Golden (Denver)7 cubic ft 12" woofer (old school ported baffle design)Solid 1.5" thick Cherry tops $60 pair on CL. Sats are mission 2 ways I picked up and refomed, about 25 including foam. Stand ins are New Vifa tower (Dennis Murphy)I built myself.
3.Source. I was poor (or wife restricted), and building a system took time. I found vinyl to be the best source due to used market thrift stores, but in a larger city (Denver). I built a collection and started with about 25 older albums in so-so to bad shape I had from high school. Now have around 1000, but paid on average about 1.00 an album. Jazz and classical listeners, I learned, take the best care of vinyl. My playback is a Thorens TD 160 (free from a friend). Have CD's and player too. But I was able to greatly expand my collection with vinyl.
4. Power and switching. Dependent on speaker choice to large degree, but more efficient speakers allow for wider range of choices. Again, thrift store find, Mac 4100 vintage receiver. $35. NM condition. Stand in anything, big black Yamaha currently, used $19.
And the most important element in design is synergy. I have a system now, that would have been good--25 years ago. But many might be surprised how satisfying a system from 25 years ago can actually be;-)
Edits: 12/13/16 12/13/16
It depends somewhat on your approach to System Building. By that I mean are you looking only at New-In-Box w/Warranty products or will you try to add value with select used gear?Also are you building over time or do you want a complete system in your room at once?
If you are buying new, start with the speakers or more properly the speaker/amplifier pair, as they go together. An efficient speaker can mean a less powerful amplifier, and vice versa.
However you can always start with an inexpensive speaker pair and buy something more to your liking later. I don't know anyone who can't find some place for a $300 pair of speakers ... home theatre surrounds, bedroom system, even the garage if you have one. So not really a waste of money if you go that route.
I would suggest either spending little on your digital source or waiting until everything else is in place before going for your preferred digital source, as this is fast moving technology. So it should be the last dollars you spend ... you want the most current product, or the suitable last year's used product, for the most bang for the buck.
For an analog source, decide where you want to be price wise and go for it right away. There is no point in buying a $300 turntable unless your goal is to have a $300 turntable once you are done, in other words. You can cheap out on the cartridge and improve that later, though, as a reasonable $100 MM is certainly available in the market, so not much $$ lost when you upgrade.
Auditioning cartridges is not simple but this is where a relationship with a Bricks-And-Mortar dealer pays dividends. You don't have to buy everything from him ... he isn't a fool and knows how the modern market works ... but speakers and cartridges are really the domain of the dealer audition. If you do use his time listening to potential transducers, buy them from him.
I am a "Source First" guy. Although I do have multiple sources, if you looked at my system as a single > source - amplification - speakers only < setup, it breaks down thusly:
Analog Front End 1600 (turntable, tonearm, cartridge, phono preamp)
Preamp - Power Amp 2400
Speakers $1100 (2ch plus subwoofer)I started with a used NAD receiver ($ 240 pawn shop buy) and new speakers. The rest was bought over time, with the analog source last (used my computer line out before that, or FM). I could now replace the speakers but when the source is right and the power is right, you are driving the speakers "properly" and it shows ... they sound fantastic and much better than they did with the NAD doing the work.
Edits: 12/12/16
The only thing of all the possible stuff posted and ranted about.. There is nothing which matters more than your own ears.
If you go for any other 'rules' or notions.. You are setting yourself up for disappointment
Edits: 12/04/16
An acoustic suspension speaker, 6 in min, more like 8 in, without an ear damaging metal dome tweeter, IMHO. Tweaker456
" Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules.
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools." From the pen of the Crimson King
I believe that the amp/speaker interface is the critical match to making or breaking a system. Listen to as many combinations as you can, and determine what sounds best to you, then try to replicate it.
You can have great sound with high efficiency speakers and flea powered tube amps, and you can also have great sound with inefficient speakers and high powered SS amps. There is also a lot of terrible mismatches out there. So I recommend that you do a lot of listening, and try to find the combination of amp/speakers that work best for you as a place to start.
I only use headphones in my studio for multitrack recording, so they never come into play with my listening rig. My Klipschorns are 12 feet apart in the corners, and my living room opens into my dining room/studio space. I sit 12 feet from the speakers, so lots of the room sound is largely controlled by not being too far from the speaks. In front of the Khorns (powered by a Sansui 8080DB) sit two single 15" subs (Ampeg PR-15H) powered by a Crown CE-2000 and a Sumo Athena preamp. It's an easily-balanced system, lots of headroom all around, and never blaringly loud, although the capability clearly exists. The room is pretty live and enjoyable from my huge leather chair purpose-bought for viewing, surfing and listening via internet/streaming/computer audio, cable TV and vinyl.
http://thewarmteenagetangerine.blogspot.com/
If I get those 2 right, then I know at least I get a decent tunes out of a system.
I'm a source first guy. If you have no source, you have nothing. After that, put me in as a preamp plus headphones person. That is a start. Then amp and speakers.
After having built many systems for myself and others over the years the most successful have always started with the speakers. After all the speakers contribute the majority of the sound. Then the correct power amp to drive the speaker and then a good preamp. From there you can choose all your source equipment and cabling
Alan
Any other way and you are just not doing it right!
I never did it that way, but that makes perfect sense.
I also depends upon how much you are investing in the system, so no hard rules, but yes, build the system the reverse of the signal flow, absolutely.
My good system has loudspeakers that perfectly match the amplifier and at that point for any source that you add, you will have a solid foundation for it.
When building a system from scratch, the first thing you have to nail down is where you're going to put it. The room constrains which types of speakers you should consider, whether you have neighbors or significant others to consider, what placement options you have, furniture and seating and layout, the kind of treatment you might need, the available electricity supply, the amount of SPL you need out of the speakers, whether to couple or isolate, and probably a bunch of other things.
The problem is most people have no choice in the room. They are stuck with what they have. You most of the time have to have a system in the room to start playing with room correction methods
Alan
If you have the means to buy or build a dedicated audio room to the specifications of your choosing, then you have the luxury of selecting whatever speakers you want first and choosing or designing an appropriate room for them. For most everyone else who is starting from scratch, the room is what you start with, and it's what your system has to fit into and sound good in. It constrains all your other choices.
To me, the "room" isn't just the floor, walls, and ceiling. It's what's inside and how it's laid out and what else it's used for and what kind of placement and treatment options you have and so on… So even if you can't pick a different room to put your system in, there are still a lot of choices to make.
Yes."The room constrains which types of speakers you should consider,"
Absolutely. In that vein, I'll just add that choosing speakers is kind of a two step process: Get a handle on what general kind of sound you like by listening to a lot of speakers, and then match an appropriate model to the room with regard to physical size, dispersion characteristics and output capability.
Generally speaking, in a more live room, you'll want more directional speakers, and in a more dead room, you'll want wider dispersion speakers. This assumes that you want high quality sound and clarity along with some attention to controlling the reverberant field.
Then, match an amp to the speaker's needs for your desired listening levels.
:)
Edits: 12/03/16
... then what?
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich ...
Even if you have no choice of which room to put your system in, it's still the first thing to consider when building a new system and if you're starting from scratch it should be the first piece of the puzzle to sort out.
... among other the influences on selection of components
I love the music of Dmitri Shostakovich ...
There are different rationales for each strategy, in what is basically a chicken-and-egg problem. For many people, speakers-first makes the most sense, as they do affect the sound the most, and provide an opportunity to exercise one's taste right away, kind of an instant gratification. Two problems with it are that taste evolves and matures, and that an impressive but lo-fi choice can impede progress for a long time, if the goal is to eventually hear what is on our recordings. Still, for a beginner, it's a good way to get accustomed to actually listening carefully.
The amplifier-first approach is a good one for folks who have been through a system or two, but are still exploring and experimenting with what satisfies increasingly sophisticated tastes. Although matching an amp to speakers is often important and sometimes critical, an amp known to be excellent is usually the best way to hear what most sources and speakers actually sound like.
The source-first principle makes a lot of sense for vinyl, which needs to be analyzed as a separate system all by itself, with its own chicken and egg problem, so to speak. Being held back by a poorly performing front-end component is all too common in vinyl systems.
IMO, going digital completely obliterates the need for a source-first approach, since trying different digital sources is so easy. An excellent system downstream is required to even hear subtle digital differences.
Well, I am a little weird so I guess I'll tell you how I would do it if I could, and actually did when I could.
First of all the source goes in or near a corner, along with monitor, TV whatever. This meant the room is kinda turned sideways at a 45 degree angle. You take one speaker and put it about 2/3 the way from the corner. Noe get out the calculator and factor that distance to 1.618, then take whatever that factor is and take it to 0.618 and that is how far you place the other speaker from the same corner. I believe this give the biggest sweet spot, but might really not do too well on the Wife acceptance factor. In a room that is practically square though, the method does cut down on resonances and you should get better bass.
If you got the power and enough bass, the LAST place you want your speakers in in corners, and you don't want them to be equidistant from the corners either. The advantage is if you use your good system when to watch the TV, the TV goes in the corner.
I have only had a couple of places where I could do this but when I did people said "Damn, this is excellent". And it sounds really good with good imaging, so much so that i f you got reflective walls it almost sounds like you have surround sound.
Unfortunately due to doorways, windows and whatnot you can't always do it. But if a doorway is right at the corner of the room go ahead and put one speaker there. Some of the radiation will be going into a half space instead of a quarter space and that is usually good. (of course you have them up off the floor, the floor creates a half space all its own and then the wall makes a quarter space and a corner makes an eighth space, not good)
If you have say a livingroom and a big wide doorway to the diningroom, use the corner as far away from the didingroom as possible. For one you might get some imaging in the other room but also the bass bounces against a farther wall, in fact you might find that it actually sounds better in the diningroom. So if you like to play cards or whatever that is a big plus. Of course you don't want it loud, and I don't really care for music while eating. I have almost walked out of restaurants when the music was too loud for my taste, and we are talking a guy who has played live music, been to rock concerts and got up right near the speakers ad even been in jail for a loud stereo. (details on that in another thread, in fact maybe I'll write that tonight as I have some time on my hands)
Anyway, forget the conventional, and I have even done this corner type setup with a quad system and it turned out great. That really worked out as I had one of those Advent five foot silver screen TVs with the mirror in front. Mine worked RIGHT baby, perfect convergence, fresh tubes and everything in perfect alignment, the best one in town, and bright. Those things, since the screen was at the back, put you a little bit farther away than a regular RPTV. One day I'll describe that system. I had beta and VHS, cable, tape to tape both ways and cassette. Don't remember having a turntable on that one but didn't need it, had a CD player.
I do remember movies on it, Days Of Thunder, the cars really did go around the room, Star Trek, when the ship came at the screen it did go to the back. All off a little Marantz Quadradial receiver, set right of course. Well that wasn't the amplification, it was used as a preamp actually. If you use one for that, set the Dimension control between 2 and 3 oclock for best results.
Many houses lend themselves to this type of setup but people seem never to try it because it is unconventional, and the worst part of unconventional is the WAF. They seem to hate it. I remember my Uncle before he got married, had a bunch of recliners. Want to get cozy with your honey that's what beds are for. Of course you can have a system in there as well, and back then you just tuned in the cable with your TV so you didn't need to rent another box. Later he got married and all the sudden there was a couch, and no more mushrooms growing in the bathroom. And they cheated at pinochle.
2nd note;
decide on a source- CD/SACD or Turntable. Your gear (pre-amp, power amp and cabling) will become dependent upon the source of your choice!
ppopp-
the whole process is objective, as you are working, on a specific goal.
I start w/ Speakers. There are many, many excellent models to consider.
nt
x
and, after determining the pluses/minuses you have to deal with in that particular room, you probably
want to choose some speakers most "apt" for it.
Floor standers, stand mounts, etc.
Then the right amp to drive them, a pre if you need it, your sources, cables, et al.
I think that's what I did.
It is largely subjective but proper logic applied will ease certain frustrations that could derail the fun down the line.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Unless one owns a home, planning for the room is pretty tough for the average wage earner.
the speakers are imperative first and that getting the right "ones" (size?) is important so you don't
overload (or underload too I suppose) the room.
I'd have probably preferred floor standers but our living room in our rented flat prohibited such
for any and all practical purposes.
I choose my system (speakers first since they have the greatest single impact on overall sound)
basically around the physical space I have to use it in.
Yeah, many of us ARE "stuck" with the room we have, so choosing carefully what goes in it is important.
Later on tweaking the room to tweak the system can sure be beneficial.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
electrical power.
After that, appropriate loudspeakers.
The room is the place to begin, and makes the largest contribution to the sound quality of a system.
No. The room can be changed. You pick a speaker style and sound you like. You don't fall in love with Quads sound but then say but in this room I need K horns. I'm not minimizing the role the room plays but you are overemphasizing it. I make my own room treatments. The room size and other factors play a large role in getting the SPL you want but amp power and speaker size can overcome things that speaker brand and design style cannot. You have to pick a speaker you like first.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
I would argue its easier to change the speaker than it is to modify the size and shape of the room. Yes, you can add room treatments, but your ability to modify the room is limited. If someone buys, say, a 20.7 Maggie and tries to fit them in a 10' x 10' room, it simply won't work optimally.
Most bad sounding systems I've heard are due to selecting the wrong speaker size/type for the room and/or poor placement.
There's greater synergy between the speakers and room than between any other parts of the system, and some types of speakers just aren't suited for some types of rooms.
I had Klipsch Heresy in this room and THAT was a mistake.
I'd LOVE to have some JMR OFFRANDE in here, had the $ for an available used pair
a few years ago but there's NO POINT in trying to force a star shaped peg into a round hole.
Room treatment here would have involved removing a wall.
Landlords frown upon such.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
If yu are upgrading slowly over years.. Generally I would say follow what pops into your life.
Some of the best things I have found were I stumbled on by accident in the used pages...
To do that takes having money saved up, so you can jump on the same day. Great used gear does not sit un-bought.
If yu are buying new gear, and fairly fast as your CC gets paid off..
Depends on "What are your goals".
The best, or just good enugh.
Wasting money on many little steps is a mistake. I DID THAT myself, over 50 years LOL.. Then lateral moves which seemed like an upgrade at the time...
The number one thing which is also usually the biggest expense are speakers. And they are usually the longest kept.
The amp choice should be based on what speakers you want to drive.
Sources. Computer, web based? LPs. CDs?
Plenty of folks swear the source is the absolute most important. I am NOT in that camp. The parts all matter.
Used is really the place to go for a preamp. Plenty of really wonderful preamps available used. Same for DACs. Save 75%..
Let say you are cheap. (Have money, no problem, but just a tightward..)
So you have NO MUSIC at all.
But you do have a computer...
The first thing is to buy a DAC/headphone unit, with USB.
And some headphones.. Good phones. The best you can buy headphones..
Now you are with all those folks over at headfi org. Plenty of them are happy as can be with just the DAC and phones...
Then you want MORE.
Self powered speakers which can run right from your DAC.
Then etc...
Big Dual Concentrics!
with amplification and pre amplification first then the source and lastly the speakers.
I always use the high powered system with very robust power supply whether its tube or ss to make sure that whichever speaker design I choose it will drive them to the hilt and then some.
If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well
(Proverb)
which will dictate many aspects of amplification then use synergy to get the rest.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
I really see it as two sub-systems. The amplifier and speakers and the preamp and source; especially when the source is vinyl.
I usually find a speaker and then try to match it to an amp. Then go get the source.
"I usually find a speaker and then try to match it to an amp. Then go get the source."
Without a doubt speakers are the first selection and will determine how your system sounds.
Post a Followup:
| FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
