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In Reply to: RE: Rooms posted by Inmate51 on September 30, 2016 at 11:33:27
By coincidence, I've been to both Music Lovers in Berkeley and Goodwyn's in Waltham.
Music Lovers in SF has very well treated rooms by the way. Both Music Lover's and Goowyn's offer complete installation services, and Goodwyn's really pushes the very top end gear. For a while the entire industry was collapsing around the 1% of buyers, so this kind of made sense.
I was talking about this in another forum, and had a very nice chat with an ASC rep a year ago. He was bemoaning the fact that even though they offered to loan manufacturers acoustics during the show, very few accepted, with the fear that their speakers would seem to require acoustic panels.
Well, the truth is most rooms I went to sucked, but got RAVES from attendees, so I can see the seller's point. During the entire show there was only like 2 or 3 rooms I could stand to be in for long.
Further, we both noticed that a well treated room sounded great from the hallways. After that, I learned to only stick my head in if the music sounded good outside.
It's also true that the dispersion of a speaker makes a difference. The more directional, the less room treatment is needed for the same level of clarity and frequency smoothness.
So I guess my point is, yes, many rooms suck, and most buyers don't care. Buyers are too easily swayed by reviewers who, in my mind, have a spotty record of being objective to pushing a particular sound.
Your mileage may vary.
Follow Ups:
You mentioned SF and Beserkeley. I'm talking about Beserkeley. An eight or nine foot ceiling, no bass trapping, no room dispersion. But, they DID have a little 3" round thingy on a wall, so that might've helped - LOL.
We heard the big Wilsons through Ayre stuff. Nice, but I wouldn't pay $200,000 for any of it, from what I heard.
What many "audiophiles" don't seem to "get" is that the room makes a huge difference. They're largely into equipment, 'cause that's where the audiophile fun is.
The best room I've been in was at Magico (magico.net). Hearing their S7 speakers in there was excellent. Close to live. 25 feet wide, 40 feet deep, 14 feet tall.
:)
My only point was that both Music Lover's stores are not the same. :)You are absolutely right about "audiophiles" not getting the need for acoustics. I recently read a review by Michael Fremer (I think) in which he bemoans the lack of bass in his completely untreated listening room. Well? No wonder! :) He's reviewing $20k+ speakers in a poor environment.
During a recent event comparing DAC's I heard an audiophile, who brought in a very nice sounding unit, disparaging room treatments. He buys homes, and if they don't have the right acoustics by design he doesn't move in. That was the moment I realized I might very well be in the wrong crowd. Life is too short to live with boomy or weak bass and my money too precious to spend it trying to swap amps, cables or my living space to get it right.
The Magico listening room is magnificent and practically a concert hall. It really is magnificent. I've only heard the S1 Mk II. It was nice for a two way, but kind of an odd speaker to buy in terms of it's space and power requirements.
I really wish I had a chance to listen to their larger works.
Best,
Erik
Edits: 10/03/16 10/03/16 10/03/16
I'll be in Beserkeley in November, to hang out with my amp designer friend John. (Now he's gonna call and accuse me of name dropping.) Anyway, he's gonna show me how to build an amp, or at least try to show me the basics. And, no, I still don't know my differential equations, but my son thinks they're fun - whoda thunk it.
Maybe we oughtta have a pizza and a beer.
But I ain't goin' over the bridge at 9 am. Ever again.
:)
How would that be the fault of the room? Typical room treatments absorb bass.
If there are room treatments that can create bass I'm sure that some of us would like to know about them. Time to save big on subwoofers!
It's obviously true that room treatments don't add bass. But by reducing frequency response peaks, resonances, and reverb, the subjective impression is that the weaker parts of the frequency response are comparatively stronger.
Also, a perceived lack of bass can be a setup issue, due to placement of either the speakers or listening position in a null. Room treatment of the right type and placement can help reduce the severity of nulls or even shift their frequency a little bit, particularly in the upper bass.
... it may be that Fremer's room is small and/or crowded and his options for experimentation with speaker placement are limited. But one would think that an experienced guy like Michael Fremer would be fairly accurate when estimating the potential of a pair of speakers.
Bass traps are god-sends. In addition to what was pointed out above, bass traps can de-energize nulls, allowing EQ's to work when they could not, as well as control time domain resonances, where again, an EQ could not fully function.
Done correctly, the combination allows for much better bass integration from a subwoofer, or speaker. In many rooms the alternatives is either boomy or limp bass.
Best,
Erik
You've made some very good points in this thread, thanks.
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