|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
107.77.111.57
SO yes there IS a downside to spending $3,000 on a cable.
I have begun to notice (particularly with Classical) some recordings have a dull flat sound. The recording itself is 'fuzzy' and rough. Like cheap microphones were used, or a cheap mixing console.
The sound has a warm blanket over the music, muffling everything.
This was never as obvious before I bought my latest wonder cable.
Naturally the opposite is true for well recorded material. more nuances, more life to explore.
So AM i turning into the sort of audiophile who has fewer 'listenable' recordings due to sound quality? (where "Jazz at the Pawnshop" becomes not only good, but wonderful? Jeez..)
I ponder this as I wince at yet another crappy sounding recording I never thought of before as having crap sound!
I am pretty sure I will just accept the facts.. And listen anyway. When I accept my system has finally REALLY broken through the sound barrier and all recordings stand naked before me.
((LISTEN to the MUSIC, not the sound... Listen to the MUSIC, NOT the sound... Listen TO the music, not the sound...))
Until the NEXT upgrade.... Maybe then I can see the very soul of the notes??
How far down the rabbit hole do I want to go?
Follow Ups:
some unwanted shit comes in, too.
In my experience, when I upgrade a component downstream ( including cables ) I need to make sure the source components are up for the task.
Altho, when I was using NBS cables all around, they made almost any gear sound great. ( excluding Naim equipment )
If a cable makes your system sound bad, get rid of it. You've upset the tonal balance of your system.
Don't wait around for burn-in. This is a fools game.
This is not upgrading, but chasing a single miniscule attribute, then getting used to it.
This is what happens with hair stylists. A client goes in, gets a new hair cut, and feels it's fabulous. Next time, get the same haircut and it's not the same. They no longer get the excitement from the change. Some stylists even take pictures to prove the haircut is exactly what it was before.
Our ears are like our eyes though. Our eyes are constantly color correcting what we see, so do our ears adjust to normalize what's being heard. Even among musicians, perfect pitch is rare.
My own solution is to make very neutral and extended speakers, and listen to them and live performances often. As a result, the comments I hear the most from music/movie lovers is "wow, these speakers can play anything!"
Best,
Erik
I've been coming to similar conclusions.It would make sense that at least part of what we think of as the "break-in" or "burn-in" of electrical components has as much to do with the adjustments or "normalizations" of our brains as anything else. This is not to say the "burn-in period" is not a real or important phenomena, it is only admitting to the probability that we are part and parcel of the so-called "burn-in" or adjustment process.
In hifi playback, a disciplined mind is just as important as the meticulous setup of components within a system is. Ready, respectful, and receptive ears are partly responsible for the effectiveness of any musical performance be it a live event or a reproduced one.
I've become convinced that some people have evil ears. No matter what, evil pours forth from the speakers.
Edits: 10/03/16
Last time I had to complain after 6 weeks of crap, The dealer etc still saying: "give it a chance, it is not burned in"
They can blow that out their collective arse.. LOL
I think what they really wanted was for me to just give up and get used to it. Cynical? You bet.
That is my take on it. They say, "Oh no... we just think you should give it a chance, it will be OK" while they are thinking: "Until the day Hell freezes over, and we want to to keep trying at least that long"
For m, anything that sounds bad right off is not worth bothering with. And if I 'miss out' on some great gear, no problem.. There are thousands of products which do NOT suck the first month or two.
I guess I am ranting...
ARC is now recommending 500 Hours or so on solid state.
I've heard significant warm up effects with tube gear, within 45 minutes.
Also with caps I once had really odd surround-like effects while the new tweeter caps were breaking in. Like, I'd hear sounds behind my chair. However at the end of the break-in that disapeared but I felt the overal treble was better.
Still, there's so much charlatanism that I can totally understand skepticism.
Woofers however DO break-in. Measurements taken out of the box and after a couple of days running may be significantly different, especially in the resonant frequency. This is fairly well documented.
Best,
Erik
Sure. Initial "break-in" matters, sometimes. "Warm-up" time also matters, sometimes.But at other times (specifically, when a component contributes to an essentially different kind of tonal balance than the kind we've become used to hearing), I suspect that the "burn-in" period has as more to do with adjustments in the brain/nerve system than with electrical/mechanical adjustments in the sound system.
After a while you can become pretty good at figuring out which thing is which... I think.
Edits: 10/03/16
So it's easy to claim I make objectively neutral speakers, without any details to back that up. I have published a free-to-build kit that I make no money from, please find the link enclosed. Even if you do not build it, you'll find a great deal of information on what I mean by "neutral."
Of course, you are free to chase and buy or build anything you'd like. Whenever I make claims of "neutrality" some one who feels they listen to truly neutral speakers always gets butt-hurt. I'm only providing this to share my reference point.
Please make yourselves happy in how you spend money and enjoy it as much as you can.
Best,
Erik
I really need more coffee. I should have said that I DIY speakers. I make it sound like I have a factory and make money on them. Sorry.
Erik
If you click on edit, then you can edit your original post. Instead of adding more posts to your own!
After finishing, a line which shows when the edit occurred is at the bottom of your post. Plus the date when clicked takes the viewer back the what was written BEFORE you edited it.
So no matter how messed up, anyone can read it.The delete ONLY works if no one had added a reply to your post. or if more than about a day has passed since you wrote it.
SO now, you cannot delete your post. Since I wrote to it.
Below is the sort of thing I mentioned here is
ADDED see this is added. If you click on the edited date, and read, all this added is not there.
Edits: 10/02/16
the unmasking of the sound of some other component in your system? I've found that balance/synergy is the key to fundamentally better sound. When I worked at a high end shop in the late 80s we simply couldn't get the Quad ESL63s to sound any good at all. Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Perraux, the speakers sounded like cr*p. The only amp that made them sing was a PS Audio IIC+, the cheapest amp in the store and it was a match made in heaven. One can never tell!
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
.
Recordings that used to "suck" now sound OK......
The key is looking at the design, not the price tag.
My digital front end is made up of several used $40 to $80 (eBay finds) CD changers.
To my bought used $250 DAC.
Naturally the power conditioner I use with them (for digital only, I have a separate $3,500 conditioner for the analog) cost $1,000 used.
Put those together with several $5,000 components..
I guess what I am pointing to is I know how to buy by sound, not price. LOL
For me, it was ultimately about finding a place of compromise. I was at the point where you are now--several times in my journey, actually, and much further down the rabbit hole--and they were among the most frustrating periods of my audiophile life. I spent ridiculous amounts of money trying to "peel away the onion," and, yes, the uber-resolving gear I surrounded myself with made great recordings sound transcendent. But here was the flip side: it made mediocre-to-poor recordings (which, I had to face, constituted most of my music collection) sound unbearable and like the system was broken.
After shuffling through more gear than I care to admit, I reached a crossroad a few years ago. I had to face facts: the gear I was buying--all of it very highly regarded--was actually making most of my music a lot less enjoyable and, quite frankly, a chore to listen to.
So, long story short, after MANY conversations with a person whose views on audio I trust greatly, I started listening with more of my emotional core and less of my ears--if that makes any sense. That, in turn, led me toward gear that struck a much better balance between a human, toe-tapping connection with the music and an analytic one. It's a frequently hazy line, but one that becomes shockingly clear only after (in my case) TONS of trial and error and bone-headed mistakes. Yes, I may have lost some magnification power in the process, but what I gained in overall musicality and balance was well worth the sacrifice.
I think I got off on a tangent here, but try and trust your instincts. If you feel that your system is becoming less enjoyable even as it becomes more resolving, then maybe that's telling you something about what you value as an audiophile. And, as audiophiles, we of course strive to strip away as many layers of "sonic separation" as we can, but when that process actually leads to more emotional separation from the music, be it subtle or dramatic, then that's when maybe a small (or, in my case, huge) reevaluation is in order.
"Life is like Sanskrit read to a pony." --Lou Reed
.
My experience is somewhat different.
Back in the days when my system was poor to average I was convinced that half the records/cds I owned were badly recorded but the more accurate my system got over the years the fewer 'bad' records I seemed to have. Now the bad recordings are down to 3 out of > 2000.
Note this does NOT included stuff that had become victim of the Loudness Wars. These things are badly mixed/mastered and are not listenable through anything.
Years ago I came to the conclusion that you want to tune your system so 90%, or so, of your music collection sounds good. If you go too far, you will only have a handful of recordings you can stand listening to. Don't go too far down that rabbit hole.
Life is a double edged sword.
Be careful what you wish for....you just may get it. ;^)
Every time I make an improvement (not every change is an improvement) to my system, it makes ALL music sound better, the good and the bad recordings. Better recordings become even better in every way, but bad ones, too, provide a little more information, a little more of the music. I have heard plenty of crappy recordings, but even those take on more life and become less obtrusive to the musical message. If that doesn't happen, then I know it's not an upgrade.
I sometimes fall into the trap of listening only to the sound, but the most recent change (new midrange drivers) was so overwhelming that I found myself totally immersed in the music. The sound, all of it, was merely there. I didn't need to focus on the kick drum or vocals or the violins.
If your new equipment makes some bad recordings sound worse, then perhaps it's not really an upgrade; it's simply replacing one coloration with another that emphasizes (or obscures) a different part of what's really wrong.
Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9
So the whole setup have more detail. Thus the layer of blanket is more clearly defined.
The music is better too. but so much more defined is the crap blanketing the music.
One point to make is the 'Princess and the Pea' syndrome.
As I find more detail,, how many mattresses down the stack IS that pea of discomfort?
This is something that is not as easily transmitted across boundaries like a post on the internet.
The issues are subtle. Small trivialities but still something to write about.
as it can be more easily distinguished from the music than is.... messy dross.
Not that I'm an expert on dross. Far from it.
Auto-Tune......
Auto-Tune is the one effect that to me sounds Gawd-awful on a good audio system. It's a lot more bearable through a cheap radio.
The autotune was pushed beyond it's limits into making a fantastic new sort of sound for Madonna.
Many other artists also use autotune to enhance the art.
Autotune has gone far beyond just hiding out of tune singing.
It's even more than that..... Roughly 95 percent of recent pop tracks have it..... (It would be more constructive to point out the artists/albums that don't have it.) Auto-Tune has engulfed the pop music industry like a Stage 4 cancer.
I am thankful that I don't listen to music affected by that particular abomination.
There are not enough people on Audio Asylum calling Auto-Tune for what it is: an abomination..... When I'm outside Audio Asylum, it's a totally different story.
I do think Auto-Tune is the single biggest deterrence for younger music listeners from becoming interested in high-end audio.
IMO, Pro-Tools as well.
Or maybe the upgrade discovers what that original recording really was: overly compressed panned mono dreck meant for Aunt Myrtle's console or LLoyd's all- in- one.
Just maybe your pre-upgrade system was less resolving and put a nice burnished glow in the form of say, distortion on one more parts of the audio spectrum that made the aberration less pronounced.
There are irrefutable techniques in recording that have been good practice for almost 100 years that are largely ignored because of cost or misguided priorities. Some labels are consistently bad because they don't adhere to good principles and some are almost always winners based on the care that was taken.
We can always value the music outside of the resolution of our system's capabilities however, that's not what we're discussing here.
/
.
*
almost...every:
Recently heard/viewed a PJ Harvey Video "England Shakes"
Liked it enough to buy the CD.
The CD proved as Effing Awfull on my main unit.
V badly recorded / mixed Flat lifeless and of widely varying volume even.
Yet the freebie Youtube Video sounded ..Good.. thru My computer and it's Low Fi Sound system.
Not a helluvalot of Point chasing down a Marvelous Sound system..
Is there?
....need tubes. The glass kind with glowing filaments, not the bathroom variety.Get out 'yer wallet....
Edits: 09/30/16
Amplifier tubes and such amps are difficult to keep up IMO. I just do not want the hassle of a tube amp in my life.
A tube PREAMP is a wonderful device. The tubes last a long time. Tubes for a preamp are a lot cheaper than ones for an amp. And tube preamps never go up in flames. (unlike tube amps)
SO yeah. I have TWO tube preamps right now.
I have a VAC Standard as a 'glorified tube buffer' for my digital stuff. four tubes.. I bought it used for a good price. Works way better than a cheap tube buffer. LOL.
And an Audio Research SP-15 which I keep around for its really wonderful 3 tube phono section. The rest is solid state, but I just use it for the phono with my Kuzma Stabi Stogi S. I got the ARC SP-15 for free in a multipart deal. Another excellent reason to keep it around.
Yes I have three preamps in my current setup.
Totally agree that if tubes will occupy only one component in the signal path that the preamp is the place for them to be. And you're right, of course, that tube amps require more care and feeding, but perhaps a bit over the top with the Chernobyl attribute. :)
My power amp has only 2 output tubes. Just 2 lil' ol' tubes to replace every 5 years or so. But you probably don't want to know what they cost...
...
Then instead of free ones from the used up roll...
We could find audiophiles using $800 ones gussied up to audiophile standards.
Geoff.. A business opportunity!
then my other favorite cheap tweak. Size 10 chemical butyl rubber bottle stoppers. I buy mine at the local American Science & Surplus (they are NOT on the website, at least last time I looked) $1.25 each. Another audiophile tweak worth maybe $50 each to the right promoter..
Size 10 is perfect, as the top and bottom diameters are just right for various feet on equipment. Plus mating to tiptoes..
Wipe up early reflections.
...
Edits: 09/30/16
.
"LISTEN to the MUSIC, not the sound."
But you have to make it through the sound to hear the music and if the sound suffers so do you.
You're still in the "rediscovering" mode of listening.
You're still listening to hear different things, it's natural.
You've a veteran and made it through this phase before, you'll make it again.
Periods of adjustments can be tough, interesting, frustrating but NEVER boring!
Gotta have fun with the process.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
I have railed against the curse of listening to the sound..
It can afflict me when I get anything new in the setup.
It is true after awhile the problem goes away. But it also takes effort to stop listening to the sound.
Some folks never do. I feel sorry for them. They are caught up in the sound, and never get past "Jazz at the Pawnshop".. They never just fall in love with the music.. no matter what the sound.
I like old Jazz. 78's mastered to CD. Some are good, some great. but is is the music which matters, not the sound quality.
the music becomes front and center of listening and you kind of forget the fantastic SQ that it can achieve, you
can be marveled at times when focusing on THAT aspect of listening.
I pretty much take my system for granted most of the time; MUCH of the music sounds great.
Then sometimes I'll do the "critical" listening thing and realize just how damn good it sounds
in that context.
(And I'm using some pretty funky speaker cables right now; too embarrassed to even mention the brand)
I'd rather listen to a less than stellar recording of, say, Jitterbug Waltz, than JATP anyday.
We may be slaves of source dependance, but we don't have to be ridiculous about it.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Have you properly burned-in the cables with a device such as the audiodharma Cable Cooker (above)?And how do you know if the cable is merely telling you what the system, recording, and room acoustics are?
Edits: 09/30/16
Lummy-
what is the object, looks like a backward "S", in your pic (right side of cable plugged into cooker)???
I'm currently reviewing the Simaudio Mind 180 & 750D, plus the Chord Company C-Stream Streaming Cable. In the process, I will eventually resume paying attention to the Cooker itself.
A.) Not having a proper cable burn-in device is like trying to use a squirt gun to wash a dirty SUV. Having the audiodharma Cable Cooker arms you with hoses, clean water, nozzles, soap, vacuum cleaner, and rags.
B.) A cable should pass signal and protect from interference. Using cables as tone controls is well-worn path into, as the posters above have sagely stated, a rabbit hole,
Lummy- it looks like a sex toy...
For example.
7m Kimber Hero day one was so rough I thought I would take it back.
Took a few days to settle down enough to accept it was going to be OK.Cardas Parsec from day one thin.. and well, thin. I listen every day, leave on 24/7.. After maybe three weeks I tell dealer not gonna work out. Naturally the word 'break in' was bandied about. 6 weeks I said enough and no more, and returned the cable. naturally the dealer still wanted me to 'give it a chance'.
Hah. (PS all the one and two meter Cardas Parsec are wonderful, and were so from the first moment.. It was just the very long 7m XLR which was not good)Then I bought some Kimber quad bulk wire and made my own. great clarity, but still slightly thin from the get go. I accepted this as what I would live with for awhile.
The Kimber KS1116 I wanted when I bought the Cardas, but was three times the price.. So I just would not cough up the cash... then.
Finally I had the money and no excuse..
The KS1116 was great from the moment I plugged it in.The way any excellent wire SHOULD be.
Yes I am complaining about folks who sell stuff needing burn in to sound any good at all. Then if you don't use it? So you have to reburn it? how often? is it worth the hassle? LOL.
As for 'my system'. Sorry, I do not wear my setup on my sleeve.
The only purpose of folks who do not know me reading a list of a system is to pass judgement. LOL.
Suffice to say my setup is better than a clock radio, but not as good as some other setups.ADDED: A list of ones' equipment is useful for newbies who ask questions, and to be seen by folks wanting to help them.
I am not a newbie, nor do I seek advice (much) Usually I am either posting stuff I did, or things about my system. Without need for advice. (though sometimes get good advice anyway.) I AM my own Guru at this point.
So for me, having my system listed is either for brag, or for dogs sniffing. I need neither. SO I no longer list my system. Thank You.A third possible reason to have it listed, would be to allow others seeking info to see what some satisfied folks have put together. This is not enough of a reason for me to override reasons one and two not to have it listed.
I will mention I have the 7m Kimber KS1116 connecting a Bryston BP-26 preamp at my listening position to a Bryston 4B-SSTē between the speakers
Edits: 09/30/16
Well, you're in Wisconsin (pronounced wisCONsin - hey, I know, 'cause I grew up in Oshkosh, b'gosh), so a warm fuzzy blanket is just the ticket for the next many months. ;)But Siriusly...
If you're talking about speaker cables, 12 gauge twisted pair is all you need. I use Belden, which was 50 cents a foot when I bought it back in the early 1800s. What I've seen as the biggest difference is the connector and the cable's connection to the connector, not the cable itself, and there ain't no connector nor solder job worth $3,000.
:)
Edits: 09/30/16 09/30/16
.
7 meters? That a long way and could add up to be a lot of capacitance.
I hope your preamp has a low output impedance with some current delivery capability.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Two years ago I bought some Cardas Parsec for my system. But I had to return the 7m one as it never did work out. The short Parsec were great. Not so the 7m ole. It really sucked.
I have had luck with Kimber.. From long ago PBJ at 7m, to Hero, to homemade with Kimber wire.... So that is the brand I chose for my new one.
Edits: 09/30/16
I am reminded of the final scene in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest".If you play the part of Randle McMurphy, Ray Kimber might play the part of the Big Indian.
Edits: 09/30/16
"Kimber KS1116 XLR to XLR seven meters $3,106 list price."
.
Good point that is rarely discussed.
I have found that best way to go about this hobby is to concentrate on making the music you love best sound the best. I don't really buy the notion that a system should sound equally well with all music.
The two glaring examples are orchestra and small ensemble Jazz. Horace Silver played though a SET amp on a pair of vintage speakers sounds sublime. Play a big band (rock or classical) through that same system and it sounds like a sloppy mess. And visa versa w a big Class A SS amp on a modern inefficient multi-way speaker- and the Jazz ensemble sound sterile without the palpable mid-range. On big orchestra (Prague Rock etc..) it sounds glorious.
If you have an eclectic music taste, you start making compromises and do the best you can. The only way to get both is w big straight horn bass cabinets.
"...concentrate on making the music you love best sound the best."
Corollary: Just going after maximum information (as a buyer or a designer) will bring you up short because the easiest to retrieve information will come through clearly leaving the rest behind. My favorite designer claims that 75% of designing is listening. Just listen.
.
the bass towers belong to another.
I heard them at Sea Cliff and was amazed at the individual parts, but not the sum.
Very nice setup...
to tame bright audiophile speakers. At the end of the day, you have copper wire running from one thing to another. If the expensive cables had the same capacitance, inductance and resistance as cheap cables, you could not hear the difference. I once borrowed a really expensive phono interconnect and came to your same dilemma. I gave them back.
If the expensive cables had the same capacitance, inductance and resistance as cheap cables, you could not hear the difference.
There are other factors to consider such as the conductor's composition and RFI rejection. JPS Labs cables have a very similar EDC as some Nordost cables, but sound different.
I'd disagree about the RFI rejection. Unless, of course, you have evidence. Then, I'd have to agree.
Until then, I'm solidly taking the stance that it is the connector, and the cable's connection to the connector, that makes an audible difference.
:)
Of all the parts, I think the connector is the least of the important variables.
True a cheap POS connector is not good, but with any of many good RCA...
I like Tiffany style RCA. With a compression created joint for ground, and a solder hot.
As for XLR, the upgrades are almost entirely cosmetic.
True you can get silver pins, etc.. but the basic $3 XLR is always good.
XLR type connector is a great basic way of connecting cables.
Anyway, I find the insulation is very important. Look at Kimber Hero, The 'extra' strong bass is ENTIRELY the insulation. Even Kimber says so.
The same wire, same weave, different insulation.. not as much bass.
The gauge of the wire matters some.
The purity of the wire too.
It all matters..
Also the quality of the system they are on. And the ability of the listener to hear. Plus variables hard to pinpoint, b=make one wire good here, not good there.
Back when I had lesser equipment, I really could not hear differences in wires I now can easily hear on my much better setup.
Anyway, all I can write is that "if you think you KNOW why wires are what they are and why they sound a certain way.. Then you are fooling yourself."
as a truth.
It is like the parable of the elephant. One persons 'truth' is only a part of the whole, and in other places, the same notions do not apply.
Never give up! Smelly
how many hrs are on the cable(s) in question? I will advise 400-500 hrs, at least, to really open it up. The fact that you are hearing differences on various recordings means you are on the right track (no pun)!
Have fun and Happy Listening!
So 16 days... 160 hours play time. 380 hours or so powered up.
2nd note;
Smelly- I feel your pain. Once upon a time, I believed that a high-end system would "fix" bad recordings as well. As luck will have it, only about 1% are truly bad recordings. I will take 99% into the positive any day!
Happy Listening!
I'd disagree about the RFI rejection. Unless, of course, you have evidence.
Only what I hear. And why everyone and his brother employ shielded cables of all manner.
Kimber Kable uses the wire weave to protect cables instead of shielding.
Maybe the science behind RFI rejection is like the science behind man-induced global warming. It's hard to prove that the science is there.
there are standards for RF rejection (EMC), but not commonly used with home audio.
Eupen cables
When faced with controversial subject matter I depend on spider sense to make a determination. And my spider sense also tells me that others depend on spider sense too.
my ears tell me the engineers at Belden, Eupen and a cast of thousands of others have some fundamental understanding :)
SO best to lay off the superhero power usage.
Otherwise everyone would be out showing off their superpowers, hey?
I thought this was common knowledge..
A sticky subject to be sure.
.
.
They say the earth is round and I have a strong tendency to believe what they say. But I may never be certain that the earth is round because I have a fear of flying in outer space.
.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: