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In Reply to: RE: The death of streaming has been greatly exagerrated posted by Chris from Lafayette on September 20, 2016 at 12:08:42
these studies are okay, at best. We know that companies "cook" the books over many, many facets, of any business. Upon the release of the CD back in the early 80's, vinyl was thought to die suddenly.
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And of course, vinyl has been wheezing back to life over the last couple of years. ;-)
And wheezing is about all vinyl will be able to continue to do. The sad fact is that production capacity of very old machines is at max and they are barely keeping the machines running -- parts are hard to find. Now top that off with two more realities: first, no one is building any new machines; and second, LP production is immensely dependent on experienced craftsmen. These guys are getting old, many have retired or died, and there isn't much talent in the pipeline.
Finally, a lot of production capacity is being sucked up by major labels hogging facilities for the 200th reissue of some aged rock band's greatest hits from the 70s. That makes it tough for new artists to ge things pressed, especially on a timely basis.
" first, no one is building any new machines".
Yes they are.
" LP production is immensely dependent on experienced craftsmen. These guys are getting old, many have retired or died, and there isn't much talent in the pipeline. "
I have no idea how you verified your final assertion above but as long as vinyl records are produced newcomers to the industry will, over time, gain the experience necessary. Just as their predecessors did.
I love vinyl, been collecting it for ever 20 years. But I could care less about the resurgence of vinyl. As a matter of fact, I think that the vinyl resurgence biz is kind of stupid. Vinyl had it's day and that day has passed.The best vinyl records - the ones that combined excellent musical talent with sensitive, minimalistic recording techniques - were pressed in the early days of stereo and hifi when the interesting artists, the machinery, and the engineers were young and in good shape.
But I see no point in trying to resurrect the technology of the past. The past was a bad place in so many ways, it was sheer luck that so much good came through it.
Also, PVC (vinyl) production is a highly toxic process unsuitable for use in the new global marketplace. We can produce good quality recordings more economically and more cleanly using today's technology.
Edits: 09/20/16
Also, PVC (vinyl) production is a highly toxic process unsuitable for use in the new global marketplace.
Huh?
" Roughly half of the world's polyvinyl chloride resin manufactured annually is used for producing pipes for municipal and industrial applications. In the water distribution market it accounts for 66% of the market in the US, and in sanitary sewer pipe applications, it accounts for 75%. "
All I'm saying is that we don't need to use any more PVC than we already do use, especially when less toxic alternatives are available. I would therefore not like to see a massive resurgence of the vinyl record business.There are safer plastics than vinyl but I'm not sure that they would work as well as vinyl does in a formulation designed for record making.
Edits: 09/21/16
don't eat the records! ;)
We have to consider all of the people and things at risk. This includes people involved in the manufacturing, usage, recycling, and disposal of PVC and/or PVC-like materials.
are well known and controlled by the EPA and OSHA.
Get over it.
We can and should try to do better. Enough said.
empty whining for me.Perhaps you should invent a new cost effective replacement for PVC plumbing made entirely with recycled material that will revolutionize the world market!
You'd make a fortune, right? :)
edit: I forgot to ask this question long ago. Since you're a genius and the rest of the world is obviously quite ignorant, do tell us your solution:
We can produce good quality recordings more economically and more cleanly using today's technology.
We're all very interested in your new materials technology and process.
Edits: 09/21/16
What are the high quality, economical, and clean alternatives to old style vinyl records? Hi-rez downloadable recordings. Eliminate physical media entirely, or as much as possible.Let those of us who already own vinyl collections keep and enjoy them. For the people who don't already own vinyl, too bad. Fuggedaboudit, it's always tough titties for someone.
BTW, I never said that the world is ready to eliminate the use of PVC. PVC is bad stuff so looking for (and hopefully finding) alternative material is a good goal. I never said or implied that the world is ready to eliminate PVC just yet. I only call PVC "unsuitable" because it is not clean enough for the future in a world that presently creates too many toxic products. The goal is to find cleaner and better alternatives.
So I'm suggesting that reducing or controlling production of PVC products is better for the environment than not doing so. The fewer PVC products made, the better. I therefore pray that the "vinyl resurgence" will fail, or better yet will not happen at all. Every little bit helps. Makes sense to me.
Panties in a wad today?
Edits: 09/21/16 09/21/16
BTW, I never said that the world is ready to eliminate the use of PVC.
Only that they could be produced more economically. NOT.
We can produce good quality recordings more economically...
With your comment about downloads, did you really me "we already do" just as presumably you meant you "couldn't care less" about the vinyl resurgence? In this context, the use of the word "can" implies possibility.
So, those who don't already have a computer infrastructure need to save the world and go do it!
The fewer PVC products made, the better.
Replaced by exactly what? Do you actually have any solutions?
I'll let you get back to the others singing "Kumbaya" around the campfire. :)
EVENTUALLY, dude.We can (and hopefully will) continue to move and improve. But a "vinyl resurgence" will not help us to improve anything.
We are working on viable solutions to all of the problems discussed. Not quite there yet but rest assured that better and cleaner is on it's way.
Edits: 09/22/16
But a "vinyl resurgence" will not help us to improve anything.
Do you really think that such a miniscule industry as compared with the universal use of it in virtually ALL plumbing and municipal water services worldwide would make any more difference than someone peeing in the ocean?
We are working on viable solutions to all of the problems discussed.
We? Are you a chemical engineer?
When a cost effective solution is available, then the world will transition. Clearly, nothing has changed in the fourteen years since your linked article. Meanwhile, I'll continue to smile at hysterical knee jerk reactions. :)
At the expense of confusing the issue with facts, average life expectancy in the US has gone up nearly 50% since PVC was first produced in the early part of the 1900s. Obviously, it's long term deleterious effects have been exaggerated.
If "resurgence" implies "a bringing again into prominence" then the potential impacts caused by a renewal of the record making industry might be slightly more than "miniscule".
Luckily, I don't think that a huge resurgence of the vinyl record industry is likely to happen but I still would not hasten to encourage the manufacture and use of any more PVC than is absolutely necessary. You may not jibe with such a meticulous mindset, but in order to move forward I think it's important that we instill that sort of consciousness.
More "affordable" alternatives to PVC for use in household products, flooring, siding, roofing, and other things have been making headway in the marketplace for some time now. Parts of the world are certainly transitioning away from the use of too many PVC products, so expect marketplace shares to increase as time goes by.
Concerning life expectancy issues now vs. then? Well, we definitely have much better surgical techniques, antibiotics and other life-saving drugs available now that did exist the early to mid 1900's. Antibiotics and vaccination programs alone have worked wonders. So, advances in medical care count for a lot. That said, do we live "healthier" - or do we simply have better array of bandaids available today?
And we have to take into consideration the idea that what we do might affect the health of others species, even when what we do does not seem at first to affect us. And the health of the "others" in our natural environment, in many ways, continues to spiral downwards since the time PVC and other things PVC-ish were first introduced.
Of course, I cannot prove that the use of materials chemically similar to PVC are a major culprit in the downturn of the natural world - just as you cannot prove that our health might not be even better than it is right now if PVC had never been widely used. But chemical manufacture and use is suspected to be one of the major factors responsible for this steady and gradual downturn.
So hey, once again: All I'm saying is that we'd be wise keep on moving in better directions whenever possible. Why remain still and complacent? Things might seem hopeless at times but start out slow and things might gain in momentum. It's the goal.
Of course, I cannot prove that the use of materials chemically similar to PVC are a major culprit in the downturn of the natural world
Downturn of the natural world? Thanks for all the laughs!
Yours is just another knee jerk reaction - devoid of data to support changing any current EPA and OSHA guidelines.
Why remain still and complacent?
Rational behavior.
Sure, "irrational" people everywhere are working to replace PVC and other things thought to be greatly contributing to global warming and a toxified environment.And I hope you are not implying that the condition of the natural world is stable, or even in an "upturn". I know you know that there is plenty of data showing that this is NOT the case.
But regardless, I think that you and I have both had a chance to say what we think here. So It think that it's time we ended our little conversation.
Enjoy your daily commute back and forth to work in the Silicon Valley or wherever it is you go. I'm pretty sure that the air is satisfyingly stinky enough for the most rational of peoples.
Edits: 09/22/16
And I hope you are not implying that the condition of the natural world is stable,
Planet Earth has been changing for the past four and a half billion years.
know you know that there is plenty of data showing that this is NOT the case.
Sorry, but you continue to be mistaken. Data-free links from marginal greenie sites is obviously not compelling scientists at the EPA. :)
Enjoy your daily commute back and forth to work in the Silicon Valley or wherever it is you go
?? My daily commute is about eighty feet from the bedroom to the home office. I live in a small college town where distances are short and drive efficient two and four wheeled Honda vehicles. That makes sense.
I'm pretty sure that the air is satisfyingly stinky enough for the most rational of peoples.
Air quality? I thought all the hand wringing about PVC was about children absorbing dangerous toxins in their impressionable bodies. Further confusing the issue with more facts, air quality in the US has continued to improve over the past couple of decades. Scroll down to view the data. This through changes proven to be beneficial.
Thanks again for the humor!
We believe differently from each other, no doubt. And neither one of us is going to budge, just as neither one of us is ALONE in our respective beliefs. So I see little point in continuing this conversation.
Thanks for the slice.
try using statistically sound data to support your argument. And avoid putting your foot in your mouth with comments contrary to reality.
You might actually convince folks. :)
Believe what you want to believe, I guess. I can only hope that my side wins, just as you would I'm sure.
Thanks, and good-bye.
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