|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
138.207.151.18
Why is it that so many are on a quest to find "warm" sounding gear? Is it simply the antithesis of a perception of analytical digital sound? I find it interesting that people who have been in this hobby for several years are still seeking "warmth".
Follow Ups:
Actually, for me at least, the most annoying word is "neutral". Who's neutral? Yours, mine, theirs? Okay, I admit to liking "warm" sounding gear BUT for me that means different from someone else. I prefer my HF to be a bit "warm" sounding BUT for many different reasons. In the past I've leaned towards "warm" BUT in the past year or so I have moved away from it to get more a bit more neutral. For me it's a fine line and this is "my" challenge.
A simple trip to my local symphony orchestra hall or jazz club tells me that neutral doesn't exist since recordings are tendered by many who don't prescribe to neutral but do to elevating treble.
This is exactly what I was trying to tell you'all in my post concerning the sound of modern western hi-fi components!
No warmth or musicality, harmonically threadbare, dreadful!
.
"I can't compete with the dead" (Buck W. 2010)
"It would take me forever. I don't think I have forever" (Byrd 2015)
woolen lows.
The first person to say where that's from, wins!
:)
The bicycle racers of old must have been audiophiles. They wore jerseys made of silk and shorts made from Merino wool.
How can I claim my prize?
Oooh, sorry. This is an audio question.
;)
Oooh, sorry. Don't you hate it when questions and subjects get mixed up in an opportunistic fashion?
At least I kinda knew it when I heard it highlight the bass and electric guitar in rock music. Sometimes I EQ my system for a little west coast sound and play pop rock music.
I remember the term, and back in the day you could get it without any EQ -- just a pair of the large Advents. :)
Advents were the epitome of the "east coast sound", I think. JBL epitomized the "west coast sound".
The JBL's of the day were far more evenly balanced than the Advents, to my ears anyway (I babysat a pair of JBL L100's for about 6 months, and was regularly punished with the sound of Advents in friend's systems).
I suppose it depended on the model - I remember that my piano teacher in the 60's had JBL's and was telling my father and me about how impressed he was by their "quick" sound. Not long after, my dad went out and bought a pair of JBL's himself. ;-)
"East", "West", "warm", "cool"- who gives a damn, really? Sound, like direction and temperature, is way more subjective than we'd care to admit.
Edits: 09/18/16
all the best,
mrh
"Fun Factor" system
The words are "annoying" because they're so general..... I've heard gear that sounded "warm" because it muddied up the upper bass/lower midrange..... I've also heard gear that sounded "warm" because it was linear and just lets the recording come through......
I'd vote for 'musical'. If someone likes something and can't explain it or it has flaws but they like it. it's always 'musical'. It's meaningless except possibly to the person using it.
Just I know a few
D
It is relatively easy to get warm without a lot of clarity.
Same thing (but a little more money) to get clarity with a lack of 'warmth'.
To have both? Takes big bucks.
Also I think part of warmth charm is the haze of age.. Back in the 50's warm was all there was..
Then came transistors...
And warm became rarer. But folks were OK chasing after neutral...
Nostalgia is partly the desire for a return to warmth.
Also neutral or clarity is just not enough to satisfy.
...that I enjoy the music more when I adjust the freq balance on my active XO to allow me to best discern the different parts of the music and their relationships to one another (within the limitations of my system and my ears). Bass "slam" can sound cool, but too-strong bass can overlay and partially screen other parts of the music from your perception of the whole. Same with etched treble.
We have to add "feel" and "sag" to the jargon- especially with regards to tube amps...
Dman
Analog Junkie
Ok, I'll bite. What does feel and sag mean....
Sag is compression. Nothing more. Usually caused by a drop in B+ voltage when the amp is playing near full power.
Well, every good guitar player (and bass player) knows that a good amp has a certain feel to it, especially in tube amps. this can be the sustain the amp contributes, or how well it handles clipping (something some player WANT).
Sag has to do with the design of the power supply and how it reacts as the amplifier as it reaches clipping. Again, this is something that contributes to the overall tone. This can also cause audible compression just as the amp reaches before clipping.
I'm sure that someone like FenderLover can voice it much better than I can.
Dman
Analog Junkie
aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
JMNSHO!
.
Then don't read equipment reviews. Anyone reviewer who uses adjectives eventually says things that are potentially annoying.The required trick when reading reviews is to try to understand what the reviewer is saying, of course. But because words have no meaning in and of themselves they can only allude to things that are real. How do we read between the lines?
Sorry if I you find my reply to be annoying. If you feel as if you are being misled by my words, please try to *understand* that I am not being intentionally misleading.
Warm feelings and cold thoughts, all the best to you.
Edits: 09/17/16
Good reviewers have moved way beyond "warmth", some do a remarkable job at putting what they hear into words. Here is a good example of what I find annoying;
I've always associated the "warmth region" in the upper bass / lower midrange and prefer a neutral sounding result. Some components are overly "lean" in this region and sound unnaturally thin. Like the body of the cello is missing.
When I think of treble response, adjectives like dark or bright come to mind. Or hard and soft depending upon a driver's distortion and response peaks.
It's hard to see anything annoying in that post. Just a guy looking for speakers with a certain blend of sonic characteristics. If you don't like the adjective "warm", what alternative would you suggest he use?
... might use terms like "warm" on occasion. But they are always careful to implement a careful balance between the icing of jargon and the cake of fact.I am also reminded of the spice in spiced tea. As long as the spice does not overpower the tea I'm OK with it. So too, the best reviewers of gear know how to balance a bit of rhyme with a lot of reason. Remove the rhyme altogether and the reason might fail to impress as it should. The good reviewer is spurred on by the love of music as well as the love of gear.
We are just scratching around in the dark here. Show compassion in the face of the human plight.
Edits: 09/18/16 09/18/16
...not sure just exactly what it means in the context of sound. I see the term used frequently to describe the sound of passive components where physical construction and/or physical layout translates to sonic characteristics in the mind of the observer. ex. The sound of paralleled resistors of different ohmic values.
Smear can be a meaningful term, as long as it's qualified. For example, time smear, e.g. a system that plays notes with slowed attack and extended sustain, fast notes blending into each other or obscuring each other. Or image smear, a lack of precision in rendering images. Or I've heard smearing used to refer to poor separation of musical lines or instruments.
But I agree with you that "smear" is too often used as a generic slur when dissing somebody else's design or component choice, e.g. those Elna Silmic coupling caps smear the sound. Used in that way, it doesn't mean much of anything.
Another good one!
the term warm usually implies tubed gear or analog sound (LP).
You see it with everything though, "looking for a warm sounding pair of speaker cables", any recommendation on a warm sounding cd player"
and, if it wasn't, most could not determine the actual sound of the sources that they are using and so have no metric to use. But the word gets thrown around by a lot of folks.
Personally, I think that it's simply a justification for peoples buying decisions to make them feel better about their purchase.
Personally, I think that it's simply a justification for peoples buying decisions to make them feel better about their purchase.It's not about making one feel better about their purchase. It's about the sound.
Until you've truly experienced brands that sounds cold, sterile, lean, thin, clinical, and bright (I have), you might not appreciate 'warmth'. ;-)
We need words to describe what we hear. If 'warmth' comes up a lot, perhaps it's a characteristic sound that many people enjoy vs the opposite.
Edits: 09/17/16
The kind of thing that lead us down the wrong path in the past. I would respectfully suggest that we not reply to one another's posts.
And yes, in 48 years in the hobby, I have experienced cold, thin, hard and edgy sound and dislike it as well.
All the best,
Marty
I agree, there is no such thing as "neutrality" but since we have to describe the sound, 'warmth' isn't such a bad thing when you consider the alternatives we have both experienced. Good day.
So why don't audiophiles and reviewers use speaker types (for instance) to describe other speakers. A majority of audiophiles have probably heard LS3/5As, Quad 57s, Klipschorns, Large Advents. Why not descriptive terms like "Quad57ish in the midrange", or "Advent-like bass"?
_
Make super easy diffusors:--> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html#post4215464
Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/
"Warm" as opposed to what? The term "high end" annoys me much more!
Personally, I think that people who are seeking a "warm" sound are reacting to the "hi-fi" sound that many purported "high end" manufacturers and their dealers are attempting to foist upon their prospective clients in their efforts to revitalize sales.
They must sell new product in order to survive and have discovered that if they design and feature something that sounds new and different many people will make the mistake of believing that the stuff sounds better than what they now are listening to.
Then, after a short while, they discover that new is not necessarily better and long for the "warm" sound that they foolishly discarded.
When I visit a B&M store that is demoing some of this "new" gear that sounds shrill and grating to my ears I quickly realize that a "warm" sound is what is sorely lacking.
Call it what you will, I'm for "warm" and the word doesn't bother me a bit.
"warm The same as dark, but less tilted. A certain amount of warmth is a normal part of musical sound."
The word doesn't bother me either.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
When I am at a live show, or even an acoustic event "warm" doesn't usually come to mind as an adjective for the sound.
easy to get "warm"with antique tubes
Edits: 09/17/16 09/17/16
Living where you do I can understand your annoyance with the word. ;-)
I was in Ponte Vedra Beach a couple weeks ago. Will be in Cocoa Beach next week. Warmth!
Enjoy!
Some have said that the issue is not warmth, but timbral richness,
which is a combination of tonal density and timbral resolution.
Don't believe everything you think.
- Thomas E. Kida
I think it is matching the Harman and B&K target curves for direct and reflected sound.
I am particularly amused when I see it applied to components from which the audio output, to my ears, is ANYTHING BUT "warm".
Case in point, the 22** series of "Marantz" (i.e., Superscope -- Saul & his team had nothing to do with those monsters) receivers.
I think it's just the Rococo cosmetics of those components that hoodwink their fans into thinking that they sound... good.
Heck, I use vacuum tube power and preamplifiers, and I wouldn't consider them at all "warm" sounding -- they just make reproduced music sound like... music.
;-)
all the best,
mrh
I think in some cases it's as you state, the opposite of thin, lean, hard sound. Is it a variation from neutral? Probably. It's also very subjective. What sounds "warm" to me may sound very different to someone else. I learned that lesson the hard way some years ago with the purchase of a pair of well-regarded speakers. I ignored what my brain was telling me in a very hasty demo and bought them anyway. I sold them four months later at a loss.
Then warm is welcomed. Back when there were such things I would go into audio stores and listen to the latest greatest speaker, only to be assaulted by overbearing brightness, that look at me demo sound of a Threshold amp driving Thiel speakers. (Yes, brick and mortar has been dead around me since 2000)
I find treble to be very important.
I LOVE treble.
The one thing which stands out about treble is:
No one can stand crappy treble.
So if the treble is poor, everyone thinks "This is too loud treble'
Were if it was perfect. the exact same dB level would be PLEASING to the ear.
That is THE TRUTH.
It takes a lot of work to make treble good. Really good.
Then you can listen to loud treble, and your ears are happy.
must have been a bad trip-Chip647
Thiel loudspeakers are very rich sounding related to "timbre".
The Thiel speakers you have listened to may well be. The 90's were a different era.
Agreed-
many do like those early Thiel speakers. My journey began w/ the CS 2.4 loudspeaker. I feel Mr. Thiel really perfected his particular design on this one, as the passive Bass radiator, is oval shaped.
These are very revealing speakers. Components must be chosen wisely.
They play well (no pun) w/ both ss and tubed gear. Finally, most dealers/retailers do not set up correctly, offer poor sound rooms for audition.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: