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In Reply to: RE: Some ramblings about mics and speakers. posted by beppe61 on April 30, 2016 at 06:17:45
suspend the microphone from the ceiling...
Follow Ups:
Hi ! thanks for the kind advice.
Yes but in this case, following my reasoning, the speaker should also radiate from above. Mirroring in this way the pattern of the mic.In the meantime i have found something. Omni mics have indeed a spherical pattern.
So maybe when they are used in the recording an omni speaker is indeed the most suitable transducer to playback the recording ?
Interesting subject for sure.
I have to study more.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 04/30/16 04/30/16
in many ways. a cardioid mic (directional) is not equally directional across all frequencies, in the same way a baffled loudspeaker is not equally directional across all frequencies. Since recording environments are not anechoic, the room energy is better represented by an omni microphone. In loudspeakers, Toole (JBL/Harmon) and others have research supporting that a smooth off axis loudspeaker response is important -(as important) as a flat on axis initial arrival.
I have been a fan and owner of many omni, dipole and other diffuse field supporting loudspeakers.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Edits: 05/02/16 05/02/16
Hi and thanks a lot for the very helpful advice.
Sorry for my late reply but i cannot find the subscription to the thread.
I have to say that i am obsessed by the soundstage.
I like when i feel the 3D effect very developed, even if it is created artificially.
I already know that the listening room plays a very fundamental role.
But also speakers and omni ... i do not know if they are the best type to get a materic and very well defined positioning of the players/instruments in the space.
Actually in the pictures of recording studios i have never seen omni used as monitor. They are usually conventional speakers.
There must be a reason.
So the next curiosity is about the best technique to capture a great soundstage.
It is true instead that almost anyone use omni microphones.
I would experiment with some shields to block the back sounds from reaching the mic like the one in the picture.
Nevertheless i would like to listen to some recordings with different mics to check which are the better for soundstage.
Thanks a lot indeed for the interesting information.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/02/16 05/02/16
in many ways. a cardioid mic (directional) is not equally directional across all frequencies, in the same way a baffled loudspeaker is not equally directional across all frequencies. Since recording environments are not anechoic, the room energy is better represented by an omni microphone. In loudspeakers, Toole (JBL/Harmon) and others have research supporting that a smooth off axis loudspeaker response is important -(as important) as a flat on axis initial arrival.
I have been a fan and owner of many omni, dipole and other diffuse field supporting loudspeakers.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Check out my approach, it is my recording...
I used a sure 57 mic at the front of the room with amp towards the back, one microphone that is it.
24bit 192khz flac download link below...
Ideally you would have two omni microphones panned on to the left all the way and another one panned to the right all the way. They would be placed in front of the performance, either with or without a lead singer microphone should you have one. If you have a lead singer microphone you would center that one in the mix.
My recording was done with one mic but you get the idea, what you want to recreate is the performance. And leave it at that.
Hi !
sorry but i hear only noise.
What is it ? music ?
I have problem with high rez files.
I listen only to 16/48 max.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
Ok. Never mind then. The other recordings I have were all straight to a mixing board.
Let me see if I can find a link to MP3, won't sound as good but here you go
Hi !
i listened to the track.
It sounds like a environmental recording.
But i could not perceive a particular sound stage.
My goal is to get the sensation to be transported in the place where the event has occurred.
Like a travel in time and space.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Hi i am again in the office with HPs only.
This evening i will listen.
But i have already decided on cardioids.
Now i am thinking if to go with a portable solution (Zoom, Tascam, Roland, etc.) or two cheap but nice cardioid mics (i see Behringer offers very nice mics for very little money) plus sound card and pc.
Then i would look for amateurs groups of singers.
I like voices.
I will let you know about the recording.
Thanks for all the kind and very valuable support.
Kind regards,
bg
Hi !
thanks a lot again for the valuable advice.
I am on HPs now.
I will listen to the recording asap on the stereo system.
My idea is very trivial.
Usually we listen to speakers that have more or less a 180 degrees dispersion and radiate mostly frontally.
This is the 90% of the cases i guess.
Even planars soundstage better when the back emission is absorbed.
So the idea is to use mics that capture only frontally to mirror the speaker behaviour.
I am thinking to buy two cardioid mics and a cheap recorder just to check if i am right.
Exciting topic indeed this one of the recording.
Sorry for the trivial questions but i am a beginner.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Many different ways to record music. I know one person who uses spaced cardiods 9' apart. His speakers are spaced 9' apart so they match exactly the same as the position of the microphones. Stereo width is excellent going way beyond the speakers with orchestral and concert band recordings.
Hi !
" Many different ways to record music. I know one person who uses spaced cardiods 9' apart. His speakers are spaced 9' apart so they match exactly the same as the position of the microphones. Stereo width is excellent going way beyond the speakers with orchestral and concert band recordings "
Thank you very much indeed. This is exactly what i am feeling.
In some way mics and speakers should "mirror" each other.
I really do not understand why instead all the major audiophile labels use omnidirectional mics.
As said in the Shure brochure
" Cardioid microphones are most sensitive to sound at the front and least sensitive at the back. Their unidirectional pickup makes for affective isolation of unwanted ambient sound and high resistance to feedback when compared to omnidirectional alternatives.
Cardioid microphones are essential when considering a mic for live performance "
i should have added that my dream is to be able to make some live recordings of group of singers or unamplified instruments during village concerts. You know those amateurs groups. Some are also good.
Another way could be to use some lens on the back of the mic to stop the rear sounds.
However your words have confirmed my feelings.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Hi bg,
Glad my post was of help. For recording performances with an audience, cardiods are great for rejecting audience noises. Spaced cardiods can give an excellent sense of space. Yes, one must be careful or you can get that hole in the middle of the sound stage. Obviously omni microphones pick up more of the room.
" Hi bg, Glad my post was of help "Hi ! very much indeed. It confirmed my idea. I am about to buy something to try some recordings but first i would like to get some basics.
I have a great interest for recording live performance of small groups.
When there is a mixer there is not much to do. Plug and record.
But when mics are involved the things get both tricky and interesting." For recording performances with an audience, cardiods are great for rejecting audience noises. Spaced cardiods can give an excellent sense of space. Yes, one must be careful or you can get that hole in the middle of the sound stage "
i think that this should be the most recommendable choice then.
" Obviously omni microphones pick up more of the room "
sometimes something more can be too much. Everything started from listening to omnispeakers. I was listening to an unbelievable high quality pair of MBL speakers ominidirectional.
I have never heard a cleaner sound in my life. The voice of the singer was dramatically real.
But i could not locate the singer in the space at all. The sound was coming from all around in a way that was confusing.
Because the people demoing the system were kind i ask them to play a track that i knew has a great depth in soundstage.
Again i could not locate the instruments in the space.
Instead with other monitors the transparency of the MBL system was just not approachable but bam ... the soundstage was there, deep and wide.
For me soundstage is everything.I will buy something with cardioids for sure.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/01/16
Interesting to see what you think of that recording. It is one and just one unidirectional mic, I asked some here before on their thoughts, they said they can hear the atmosphere ....
There is no one right way, MBL definitely is way far advanced for it time because recordings just plain are horrible, especially mass market music.
" Interesting to see what you think of that recording. It is one and just one unidirectional mic, I asked some here before on their thoughts, they said they can hear the atmosphere .... "
i will report for sure. With HPs the effect is not evident.
I will do it asap.
" There is no one right way, MBL definitely is way far advanced for it time because recordings just plain are horrible, especially mass market music "
They look like omnidirectional speakers to me with very advanced drivers. Those drivers are really something. But other omni have been built in the past. The big difference is in the quality of the drivers. These of the MBL are quite unique.
But omni is not a new concept.
I do not like it by the way.
I like good horn speakers with controlled dispersion.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Here is famed conductor Herman Scherchen with his omnidirectional design from the 1950s. Bose had nothing on him.
Hi ! i think i have found what i meant to say.
That the mic pattern should be similar to the speaker dispersion.
If we look at the polar dispersion of a normal frontal radiating speaker is very similar to cardioid pattern.
So the best solution for recording a stero track would be a pair of cardioid mics rightly positioned.
Does this make sense ?
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
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