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In Reply to: RE: Old-school , name one ....? posted by morricab on April 28, 2016 at 06:21:50
Disagree with DD /idler vs BD Turntable
Follow Ups:
You can...you wouldn't be correct but you can do what you like.
Which DD and which BD have you compared against?
I personally have found the old idlers to sound a bit "dirty" but I haven't heard one that has been fully restored etc. They do have a great sense of musical drive though that makes listening quite fun.
Really good DDs have that same drive but are way cleaner sounding.
I find it telling that VPI, after decades of doing top notch BDs, went with DD for their reference product.
However, as slick as the motor is in their TT and as good as the control system, it is no better than the best motors and control systems from the old Japanese decks.
I have measured some really good BDs (at least good reputation) with my Allnic Speednic while playing records and you can see that they are not totally speed stable under load. Do the same with my Yamaha and it is solid as a rock for speed stability.
Vintage vs modern
Edits: 04/30/16
Had Betas, they were great in some ways but definitely not perfect or even the best planars I have had.
You do realize that BD TT's have consistently been considered the best table type for the last 4 decades , yes imagine that, DD tables are so much better the market is flooded with them.VPI is not a good example with their DD..
It's been my experience that good sonics can be had from all TT type drive systems, but BD TT's alway sound more natural to me and to most audiophiles and is considered the better table by many, speed stability is not an issue with every BD TT, unless you talking really inexpensive BD tables.Platter weight is very important with BD tables.
TT over the years 1973- current
AR ES1, LP12, Micro Seiki, BL51, Solid5,DQX500 Thorens,124,126, Rega,2 Garrard 401,zero 100SB, Technics,1200,SL202 Kenwood 500,650, SOTA sapphire
Currently only have 5 out of the bunch ...
I did have a Dual many years ago, was not fond of it so it went (cant recall model) and have heard many , many Sota setups over the decades, from a time when audiophiles used to actually compare and shoot out stuff, not this mine is better than yours internet BS of today.
SO , no i cannot agree that DD turntables are better than BD, i have heard them both sound good, but ultimately BD has always won out as the choice to stay..
regards
Edits: 04/29/16 04/29/16
None of the DDs you have on your list would qualify as a superior example from that era.
Try a really good one from that era and get back to me.
Try a really good BD and get back to me , its easy they are everywhere , then of course the difficult task in finding a good DD to compare ....
Edits: 05/01/16
Does a Voyd reference or a big Transrotor ( was about 25k new) with three motors and magnetic decoupling of the belt drive system from the platter/bearing? What about the SME20/2 or the acoustic Signature Challenger? A Michel Gyrodeck (DC version) or a Linn Sondek?
What about the Dr. Feickert Twin with Kuzma airline arm and Lyra Skalla cart?
All of these were quite good, especially the Feickert and the Voyd, but not better than top DDs I have heard and owned at length.
What was the deal with the SME 20/2
Well you put an Allnic speednic strob weight on it and you can watch the speed varying slightly as you actually play a record. A little forward a little backwards but the strob lines were not rock solid. Also, initially it was runnning a bit slow, so we had to bring it up to the right speed first...but then it wasn't stable with the music playing. So, IMO, it failed its primary purpose...speed stability.
Do the same with my Yamaha and even touch the edge of the platter with your finger and you get no dancing of the strob whatsoever. Essentially perfect speed stability, loaded or unloaded or under fluctuating load.
The other BD TTs were all slightly off the right speed. We had to tune up every single one of them. Who knows how long they will hold to the correct speed? The big transrotor did at least look pretty stable when playing a record.
Accuphase electronics, Micro Seiki turntables, Infinity loudspeakers!
What Vintage Accuphase
Too many to list. I am partial to the C200/P300 series of separates, and the E303 series of integrates.The original discreet digital offerings as well (DP80/80L/DC81/81L/DP70/70v).
Edits: 04/29/16
I should note that I am a fan of Apogee, McIntosh, Spendor, and the original Yamaha series as well.
The most musical SS system that I can vividly recall hearing was comprised of a big Tandberg receiver, a Revox Reel-to-Reel, and a big 3-way set of Spendors playing a recording that to this day I am unfamiliar with.
Up until this last year, I owned a lot of gear, including nearly every model of component that Accuphase has produced. I was forced to sell of this collection, save a few units.
I still have 2 Micro Seiki turntables, and 3 models of Infinity speakers, and a few other select pieces of gear as well.
My Sony amp seems to have been made at the very height of their hi-end efforts. A remarkable unit really. Smooth yet transparent!
I had the Infinity Modulus Sat/sub system and the IRS Beta beastie. Never owned any Accuphase other than a F-25 active crossover.
Micros are nice TTs, especially their upper model stuff. I, however, prefer big Japanese DD designs.
Never liked any Japanese SS amp designs. Ever. Their top tube efforts; however, are another story altogether.
Morricab,
You did not answer as to what DD tables we are discussing anyway i see you are in Munich , fraternizing with toobs and Horns for more Bias reports..:)
BTW, you must have missed it where Fremer had mention the speed stability on the AF2 vs DD tables ( VPI) I'm sure you are not basing this on an odd "deal" ..
regards..
Morricab,
I will respond in length when time allows, you still did not list or name any of the superior DD tables for discussion.
Regards..
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