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The thread below mentioned something about this and I think it's an interesting debate:
Of all the components in a chain, which one is, in your opinion, the one that has benefited the most from modern advances in technology?
By modern technology I mean from let's say 2005 to now.
In my view, it's speakers. I pick them because I think it's possible to get the kind of quality now that in 1985 would have been untouchable both in price and technology.
On the other hand, I think turntables are only just starting to take advantage of new tech and, due to the 30 year lag in innovation, are one of the components where old examples like the Nakamichi tx1000 represent technology that may have been perfected by now had the lag not happened.
What are your picks?
Follow Ups:
Digital...there are no other comparisons...
I think cables have improved the most since the olden days when they weren't given a second thought while speakers have lost ground (in general). It seems like there were just more musically talented people designing speakers who knew what live music sounded like and what constitutes pleasing sound back in the day. Almost anything classic by Spendor, JBL, Rogers, or Tannoy will upend most modern speakers.
From 2005 until now?
NOTHING.
The primary change in audio in the last decade+ is the shift to obscene-profit Chinese manufacturing, not the technology used to design or make the product.
By using near-slave labor, currency manipulation, and government subsidy, while ignoring environmental and employee welfare, the Chinese are finally achieving the Communist goal of world domination, while--ironically--still leaving enough profit to support the Corporate/importer side.
n.t.
More like good ole Washington cronyism ...
I blame it on everything, and on everyone. Easier that way.
Oik, Oik!
With the advent of computer controlled manufacturing, variance of materials have been tightened up where the sum of their parts are now consistently meeting specs more often then teh days before computer controlled manufacturing. Driver manufacturering, especially wire gauge consistency in voice coils and inductors are far more exact. This wire gauge consitency also benefits turntable motors as well. The advent of the carbon fiber tonearm is also a giant leap forward in tonearm manufacturing.
Ever heard a big Japanese DD deck from the early 80s? They had the most sophisticated motor control systems ever put in a TT and the sound is exquisite. Put a modern arm on them and they will equal or outperform basically anything you new you can throw at them.
I'm still on tubes and turntable.
Manufacturing is pretty sophisticated nowadays with CNC (Computer Numeric Control) tooling.
I imagine loudspeaker design is a LOT more automated as well. Same for electronic circuits.
The only thing that hasn't benefitted has been the TUBES themselves.
I would say that digital products have benefited the most. Like TV's and computers, tech advances allow you to buy at reasonable costs. I don't know if the same could be said for any other audio component.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
I once asked JA why almost all of his measurements of SS amplifiers in the last couple of years conclude with a remark to the effect that the amplifier was at least "well engineered" (or better), no matter what the price was. He replied, because this was true, or something to that effect.
However, he still comes down on most SET amps for their high distortion, with the qualifier that even-order harmonics are benign and that perhaps that is why (reviewer) liked the (amplifier X) so much. (JA always gets the last word)!
There are many other test JA could do to seperate the chesse from the chalk amplifiers, but , you know , politico and all ...
Edits: 04/26/16
Whether we pull out decades-old wires, or acquire current-production cables, ALL have their potential unlocked, when properly burned-in on the audiodharma Cable Cooker.
I unfortunately did not come into a Cable Cooker until 2003. I lament and regret that one did not exist in the mid-80s, when I started my audio cable journey.
By removing distortion, the Cable Cooker allows you to judge how well or poorly a cable does its jobs: pass signal, and protect from outside influences.
My Cooker is in constant use. It has treated thousands of products, and not just cables. Prices range from throwaway wires, to the car-priced spread. In fact, the only products it wouldn't complete the circuit were Tara Labs' Power Screen powerline conditioners. The Cable Cooker has shattered the myth and canard about not running such devices on, for example, MIT and Transparent cables.
You guys are continually sending me your wares, so that they can be run on my Cooker. I then never hear from most of you, because you guys are too busy enjoying your Cooked cables.
If you have not used the Cable Cooker, (a) you should, (b) your cables, no matter how many decades they've been in use, are operating at 10% of their true capabilities, and (c) you are not at liberty to comment.
If the Cable Cooker is "modern technology," then cables (of all vintages) have benefited the most.
The next frontier? *cough, cough* If only Alan Kafton will make the Ethernet adapter available... The lack of said adapter is holding up my reviews of Ethernet cables and the equipment which uses them.
-Lummy The Loch Monster
Cable cooker? Wow.. We're going back to the days of witchcraft and alchemy.
Wouldn't my kitchen oven work the same? It cooks. How about my outdoor smoker. Would giving them an 8 hour smoke make them smokin' hot cables?
...although a bit tough to chew on?
Pass the sauce.
"I can't compete with the dead" (Buck W. 2010)
"It would take me forever. I don't think I have forever" (Byrd 2015)
NOT the most encouraging name for a cable cooker...
Don't overlook the "d"....Lummy spelled it correctly.
:--}
Manic Dyslexia strikes again.
it wasn't until he pointed it out that I noticed.
audiodharma....audiokarma....audiodarma....it's all good. As long as people know the name, and hold it in good will. :--}
.
hahahahahahahhahahahahahaha
My hypex amp and my glorious DAC is world class although yes on a budget and it does great, my hypex amp does fantastic things for what it is, my DAC supports all types of data types.
Yet why do I have to rely on nukes to get my power when it is in the ether?
We are finally beginning to see some measurements applied to cable design that may begin to roughly quantify what we hear and that will ultimately lead to better designs.
Heyser was doing time delay spectrometry on speakers in the middle of the last century. Likewise the NRC built what is, arguably, the best facility for the testing of consumer loudspeakers shortly thereafter. Most of the energy continues to go into moving coil speakers. I don't really see much technological improvement here, though with the prices being charged, and the design budgets that are involved, the overall products have become much more heroic.
"We are finally beginning to see some measurements applied to cable design that may begin to roughly quantify what we hear and that will ultimately lead to better designs."
Are you suggesting that the world outside audio has not been measuring and designing cables based on the material properties, configuration and how they impact the signal?
The world of RF absolutely dwarfs audio AND the effect of cables vastly larger relative to the signals, where as much of audio is not as scientific and is more subjective.
if so, 24/192 and all DSD is a leap forward. Also DACs.
Resolution is more like a quality, or an aspect. Or maybe even a viewpoint.
all this time I thought it was what we tried to replicate as accurately as possible with all that hardware.
Mebbe, in a way, sure...
Strictly speaking, "resolution" is not a *hardware* component. I know you know that.
It needn't be.
Have some everyday.
Those keyboardists, they do tend to have a dry and mechanical outlook.
Oy vey...
Most: Loudspeakers, phono cartridges. The latter only because the percentage of defective units seems to have gone way down in recent time..... I also think budget vinyl playback ($500 to $1000) is as good as it's ever been.Least: Digital audio. Although improved over the past three years (due mainly to the "obsolescence" of asynchronous upsampling), the potential of it displacing analog altogether hasn't come close to realization. I also think computer and server based audio is a nice novelty/convenience product, but a large step backwards in regard to the quality of playback from a sonic standpoint. (I think RFI emissions is the single biggest killer of musical enjoyment in playback.... And computers are RFI monsters. I think RFI is why MP3 and iTunes have become popular as mainstream formats. The higher the resolution of the digital data used in playback, the higher the RFI emissions.)
I think "lossless compression" (FLAC, Apple Lossless, APE, etc.), a popular playback format in server-based and portable audio, has some strange artifacts decoded in real time..... Most notably the "attenuation of vibrato" from singers and solo musicians.
I personally believe the best digital audio, in regard to overall sonic presentation, took place prior to the year 2000. Prior to the introduction of asynchronous upsampling, which I believe set back the art a good 15 years. Not to mention enable the survival and comeback of vinyl playback.
And finally, I believe Redbook CD playback has rarely been implemented to its potential.... Mainly due to RFI emissions..... For the rare occasions it is implemented well, I believe it's the best sounding of all digital playback formats.
Edits: 04/25/16
Todd,
You need to get out and see/hear what is possible. Upsampling to high speed DSD and using a great DAC is out of this world better than any pre 2000 system....any. One guy says it is better than his $20,000 turntable with $5,000 cartridge. Another says that upsampling DSD 64 to DSD 512 sounds better than any other source period....including reel to reel.
Other pure R2R DACs like the big MSB and Trinity also make PCM sound outrageous. This has never happened before. We are hearing things on CDs that were recorded in the 80s that we never knew existed. Here is a couple of links that are just the tip of the iceberg:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20405-T-A-1-bit-converters-in-the-PDP-3000HV-and-DAC-8-DSD
http://www.head-fi.org/t/780385/gustard-x20-dac/615
People are recording in Quad DSD and cannot hear ANY difference between analog tape and a copy......this is exciting. Digital has arrived!
However, you cannot just set up a junk computer to do the sending....you need to tweak every part and every cable. Just like anything else. You will be rewarded for your efforts.
"You need to get out and see/hear what is possible."
This is why I attend audio shows.... Will be at THE Show in Newport Beach, CA next month.
"Upsampling to high speed DSD and using a great DAC is out of this world better than any pre 2000 system....any."
If it's upsampled asynchronously, I've yet to hear something comparable.... If it's upsampled *with* DSD, it's an improvement, but I've heard better with older "*x oversampled" Redbook playback.
"One guy says it is better than his $20,000 turntable with $5,000 cartridge. Another says that upsampling DSD 64 to DSD 512 sounds better than any other source period....including reel to reel."
Won't doubt that.... I've also met people who think MP3 was the best thing they've ever heard......
"Other pure R2R DACs like the big MSB and Trinity also make PCM sound outrageous. This has never happened before. We are hearing things on CDs that were recorded in the 80s that we never knew existed. Here is a couple of links that are just the tip of the iceberg...."
There is a lot of good CD playback out there.... But I've yet to hear high-resolution digital audio playback that I thought was listenable for an extended period of time.
"People are recording in Quad DSD and cannot hear ANY difference between analog tape and a copy......this is exciting. Digital has arrived!"
I'll probably encounter a lot of it next month...... Although DSD is still expensive in most cases.
"However, you cannot just set up a junk computer to do the sending....you need to tweak every part and every cable. Just like anything else. You will be rewarded for your efforts."
Maybe..... But I lost faith in computer playback when the OS was updated.... Or even the hard drive defragmented.... Computer audio is too much of a black art, vulnerable to upgrades.... (I've even heard degradation with updates to player software, ripping software, and burning software.) And even when I had good computer audio, it was a different ballgame with a good dedicated CD playback rig.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20541-DSD512-May-Fest-in-Munich-2016
what about here ...
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5842?by_user=florianw
Speakers are 'nother matter but inarguably there has been Damned little improvement over Drivers the like of 604's et al.
Dr Toole's analysis procedures has allowed speakers to be adequately tested and improved.. hardly universally though.
Amps ? Dunno, except Pass designs are ever improving with a comensurate parts count reduction.
Tubes ? ARE Over.. everywhere except in the minds OF the Flat Earth types.
Digital? Plusses And Minuses abound....Mebe in a few more years.
Edits: 04/25/16
For example, in the last decade, ceramics have gotten better and become more mainstream. Also, ribbon tweeters have come a long way. The Raidho and RAAL ribbons I've heard are magnificent.
Metal domes have gotten better too, you don't often hear the brightness/resonance problems anymore that used to be common with metal domes. The latest Magico Be tweeter that is trickling down their product line right now is amazing.
And soft domes are better than ever, with wider bandwidth and new coatings to reduce breakup. Ring radiators were the hot ticket 5-10 years ago but it seems like the improvements in dome tweeters have tilted the balance back in their favor.
In general, midrange and mid-bass drivers seem to keep getting cleaner and faster.
Mostly this comes from taking advantage of improvements in materials science, improvements in computer-aided design and manufacturing, and new production processes.
These improvements are pushing the state of the art in the high end, but I think the bigger impact is in lower end of the market. A decade ago you just couldn't buy something with the price/performance of the new Elacs or KEF LS50.
Ever voiced one of those ceramic drivers , they sound pretty unnatural to me , granted its been more than a decade since i had last done so ...
So far I've heard ceramic drivers in Avalon, Kharma, Marten, and Raidho. The Avalon was a store demo a long time ago and it wasn't really to my taste, but it was being driven by Spectral which I know isn't to my taste. Kharma was nice. Marten was a bit meh. Raidho was nice.
I think the Raidho drivers are really quite impressive. That ribbon tweeter is amazing and the diamond coated ceramic drivers are awesome in the midrange. Unfortunately, I don't like the way they voice their speakers with a phat mid-bass.
Yeah, some seem to be getting good sound out of the ceramic (pure pistonic) drivers. If you run them with steep slopes (24db) and keep them in their sweet spot you can get away with it somewhat, i could not get over their coloration at the time and thought the effort would amount to naught.
I actually agree about the drivers..... The cabinet designs, crossover designs, and driver integration are vastly improved.
RFI emissions would be conducted, not radiated, at music-playback frequencies. 'Radiated' RFI goes from 30MHz to 1GHz.So -how is digital damaging itself ? Wouldn't the 'conducted' energy harm other audio components instead ?
Edits: 04/25/16
"RFI emissions would be conducted, not radiated, at music-playback frequencies. 'Radiated' RFI goes from 30MHz to 1GHz."
The components in the circuitry act like "capacitors" at those frequencies.... That's how the RFI just permeates the circuit.
The airborne RFI can be demonstrated by holding an AM radio near an active digital playback circuit..... Or especially near an active computer.
"So -how is digital damaging itself ? Wouldn't the 'conducted' energy harm other audio components instead ?"
Yes, in fact.... I've seen this demonstrated..... A vinyl rig sounds a lot better with no active digital circuitry connected to the system than with active digital circuitry connected to the system. The problem with digital playback is that the RFI is an integral part of the process.
I personally think prior to the digital age, it was much easier to get good sound quality with seemingly modest gear.
Radiated RFI comes from power supplies, motors, transformers, heaters, lamps.Do we know what digital-chipsets radiate at ? The clock could be doing it...
Edits: 04/26/16
(nt)
?
...since it wasn't available in 2005 it could be either depending on how you feel about it.
I remember 1994 or so... .rm real media, for the common man, I had to run a shell script to get Netscape to work on my text mode UNIX login, maybe it was HP or something... Never knew mosaic, but Netscape and real media was what is here now, just back then, although with proprietary hooks, and lot of them.., lol!
No one had faster than dial up during dot com era, and I had a web site at that time, I was on the WWW, lol.
What is it now for most people? Haha, sad. That's what it is.
I do not think that traditional digital audio, i.e. disc spinners and DACs, has improved all that much in the last 10 years. From 1995 to 2005 there was more improvement. Since 2005 the bar has been raised in smaller increments. These days, choosing a DAC is like choosing a drink, pick your favorite flavor. There are so many good choices on the same level it's hard to decide what's best.
Preamps the most. Tube amps the least.
Edits: 04/25/16 04/25/16 04/25/16
Most- I agree about digital audio having the biggest change. Least would go to tube amplifiers. It is funny to see what was old new again as well. Horn speakers. Co Axial speakers. Single ended tube amps, etc.
-nt
Almost everything having to do with digital playback has been made to be more versatile (if not always "better") over the last 10 years or so, while almost everything having to do with cabling has not.
.
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