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I'm always struck by listening reviews and how a speaker does this or that but what seems to be missing from most of the reviews both professional and amateur (me) is the loudness at which they are listening.
I know when the mood hits me I'll pump it up but then I'm hearing for enjoyment not for critical. I remember one night mu wife and I listened to Chris Isaak's Baja sessions at a fairly loud level and I can remember saying to my wife that "I suppose there is always better but "WoW' that was awesome".
That was with a Perreaux 2350 a Classe Cp45 a pair of Focus Se 78's and an EAD t-1000 transport and EAD 9000 dac. All that said I doubt that the SPL was over 103DB
So how loud do you normally listen?
Follow Ups:
. . . and approximating realistic live volumes. So, there is a range from solo classical guitar (fairly soft, as if the player was in my room), through string quartet, then acoustic string band, then jazz ensemble with horns, then full orchestra or big swing band, then heavy rock at the extreme loud end.
WD-
louder is better.
Happiness is knowing you can play the system louder if you wanted to, but don't.
Halfway between TURN THAT DOWN and YOU'RE TOO OLD.
I'm kinda at the mercy of those around me, but generally speaking, I always listen at comfortable levels. I have pretty sensitive hearing, can still hear 14kHz ay age 56, and want that high-end decline to happen naturally. As a bassist who used to like to play loud and clean, I'm no stranger to thump, but in a finite listening room there's only so far one needs to go before sound quality and/or hearing losses occur. I protect my hands first (they're my tools after all), and my ears a close second, without earplugs. I cover my ears physically if I'm in a hostile volume situation against my will (or better judgement).
http://mindseyemusic.blogspot.com/
Yes I agree - my hearing is still sound as well - excepting for scuba accident in left ear when I was 16. I don't often listen to the levels as presented here - typically about 10dB less. Even at that level, I will drive my wife to the top floor, and the bedroom door shut.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
RARELY will I listen for more than a bit at very loud levels as I'm older and have noticed a bit of hearing loss in one ear already. But, hey what's the point of having super audio gear if you don't at least use it once in a while. Why but a Ferrari if you're only going to drive it at the speed limit all the time? A compact car will do the same job at those speeds.
I was just curious because I read a lot of reviews and the reviewers typically listen to a lot of music I wouldn't listen to, let alone even know about. I'm more the Keb Mo, Robert Cray kind of listener but I really did enjoy the Baja Sessions
So there is a small jazz club near by and I sat in on the recording. I set the sound meter in the second row (it seats about 40). The peak sound levels (drummer hard on rim, cymbal and snare - sorry no cowbell, lol)) topped 120dB at about 12 ft away. The level when jamming got up to about 96 dB (LZFMAX in my earlier example) The long term average though was only 82dB or less.
I'll see if I can find it a post a section.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Here is a complete playback of "Do Yo Feel..." from CD "Comes alive" in dB.
This was played without the subs and the MMG driven by a single Crown XTI Amplifier - at 112 dB the amplifier was delivering ~1000 Watt peaks
This is playback at near concert levels in my listening seat. I did this at 2AM and did not wake up the neighbors (or at least received no calls or complaints) and my ears were not bleeding.Notable levels:
The Average levels were 89.2 dBA - I'd just squeak under the OSHA 90dBA average limit in the work place - IF I played continuously for 8 hours instead of the 13+ minutes here.The Unweighted Average was 91.6dB indicating the frequency balance of the average is not low frequency heavy - confirmed by the spectrum graph in the lower left corner. (discerning eyes will notice the MMG's 63-80Hz frequency response "Bump")
The maximum RMS pressure level was a little over 100dB and was probably sinking 100 Watts for that moment into the MMG's. This occured at the same time the Maximum peak levels got to 111.5dB. Note you really can't say at this peak moment we were using 1000 Peak Watts. More correctly, you say the instantaneous Voltage and Current (they actually are not likely to be in phase) product approached 1000 Watts. McIntosh actually uses this V*I product to drive the power meters on their amps. My Crowns just monitor voltage on their LED's
Other interesting values:
Minimum level: Noise Floor ~25dBA
The RMS level exceeded 95.4\dBA just 1 percent of the time (LAF1) and 92.8dBA 10% of the time, and 90% of the time it was above 77.8dB (LAF90)
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Edits: 02/20/15 02/20/15
When the audio is unclipped, it will not sound loud, or as loud as most think, it's like having a very powerful car, you hit 120 mph and think it' s 60.What model Crown the 4002 ...?
Edits: 02/20/15
You are confusing clipping and limiting.
Loudness and clipping (especially the momentary clipping we find in audio reproduction) are unrelated.
Loudness is a complicated function of Average level and frequency content and signal dynamics. If you have a limiter on the signal you are effecting the dynamics - without clipping. The Power Guard circuit of my McIntosh power amplifier is an example. It completely eliminates the possibility of the amplifier clipping by limiting (compressing) the input voltage before clipping occurs (it does this in a very smart way - My NAD's "Soft Clipping" function does the same thing in a somewhat less "smart" way.
In either case as I raise the input level of the signal upward into the limiting region the signal does seen to get obviously louder. Similar to the recording producer compressing the signal as it was recorded.
Compression increases loudness, Clipping does far more unpredictable things. When the Amplifier is allowed to Clip (the signal voltage saturates one or more of the voltage "rail" capability, or the limits of the components used the drivers or output devices, all kinds of behaviors my manifest - depending on the design of the amplifier. With a high quality "well behaved" Amplifier The momentary clipping might "Blur or shift the image" - a snare drum moves from right center to left center for instance between two or more hits. Another possibility of clipping is that your amplifier can send out a DC component to your loudspeakers. A high frequency content short impulse Clip can cause your woofers to move forward or back in their gaps causing an increase in distortion in the part of the signal they are trying to process. (Another good reason to have active crossover loudspeakers. )
Did you know that sometimes clipping can seem to make some amplifiers sound "better" SET amplifiers are a classical example of this - the distortion components of the Amplifier/loudspeaker can make the signal sound fuller - and since an SET tube amplifier behaves a little like a compressor / limiter (to a point) the louder sections of the program material get even louder and the listener/reviewer comments, "This amplifier seems to enhance the dynamics of the program material!"
A poorly designed amplifier, when clipping, can shut off completely, though only for an almost imperceptible moment with an overdrive condition. Note this clipping behavior also can occur in input or driver stages - not just the output device stages.
So while on the surface we think of clipping as a limiter and making the signal loud, most the time clipping is far worse than limiting/compressing the signal prior to the onset of clipping.
Or just by a more powerful amplifier, :)
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
@BigguyinATL,wait , what ?Confusion, LOL, no confusion on my end at all,
Perceived loudness is usually driven by clipping harshness, without it , most would hit 100db without notice and or concern on peaks.
Edits: 02/20/15
I guess you didn't understand or believe my post....
Your lost opportunity to learn something...
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
No Sir,
I did understand, No opportunity lost, but i do see the Irony and yes you could learn something...Regards...
Edits: 02/24/15 02/24/15
"Perceived loudness is usually driven by clipping harshness, without it , most would hit 100db without notice and or concern on peaks."
"Perceived loudness"? I'll try to keep an open mind and await an explanation. Another thing, 100dB is not some kind of threshold for noise.
I don't have 3400 Watts of power (+1100 for the sub) for nothing...
It would be like having a Ferrari and driving the speed limit..
I usually stay in the 75db to 85db crowd also, rarely go above that.
Love Frampton comes alive and it needs to be played like a concert.
Edits: 02/20/15
About 75-80 on average, sometimes 85db, that's pretty loud in my 11x12 room.
The level should vary with the recording for maximum fidelity. At too low a level the bass(and treble) will seem rolled off due to Fletcher/Munson affect.
Moderate volumes because wife is usually present. But she enjoys a lot of the jazz I listen to. Not so much my world music choices. La Chimera, Calamus, Jordi Savall. ;)
I rarely go above 70db - peaks at 80db is about as high as I typically get. My speakers are able to retain good dynamics and detail at low volumes, so I'm not compelled to push it, regardless (Harbeth SHL5plus).
I do think 103db is too loud, personally.
As loud as the type of music calls for.
For sure, 103dB is plenty loud. I doubt we listen above about 96 to 98dB at a distance of about 8 to 9 feet when we turn up the wick.
With the right speakers (in our case, stacked ESL57s) and an overall system with suitable *dynamic* resolution, we just don't need it any louder (too painful) to experience the excitement of a performance. Maybe we hit 101 to 102 with some rock (Nirvana, Pearl Jam) but the effortless dynamics mean we're always engaged.
I recall listening to horn-based systems with claims for loudness (at 1m) of 110db+. Never had a need to go there and likely never will - notwithstanding the logic of having speakers with sufficient loudness and dynamic agility.
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
i posted this thread on audiogon but evidently it didn't get traction. reposted below in its entirety:
****************
Is louder always better?
i'm inclined to say yes.
first, context: you are not generating impedance mismatches when A/Bing gear, you have amps w/ more than enough power for your speakers / room (ie no clipping) and you haven't disconnected your tweeters (ala monster subs in cars) or sitting horribly off-axis.
the thing about home audio (digital particularly) is that as external noise is reduced, you are left w/ a purer signal--simple S/N ratio folks. generally, live instruments don't hurt your ears, but when a home rig does, i'd contend that its the noise riding on the signal, as its mostly concentrated on the upper mids thru treble, and this is where fatigue is generated (again, monster sub in car example for bass as non-fatiguing). the external & objectionable noise found in this frequency range determines final listening SPLs (the listener naturally arrives at a volume setting where the artifact noise doesn't cause overt fatigue). as noise is reduced, the final SPL level can be increased while generating no incremental listening fatigue.
but, at all volumes, it also implies greater microdetail & clarity (again higher S/N ratio), while also being more enjoyable---i consider those findings as evidence that 'louder is better' is a fine litmus test. if you make changes that result in your listening louder without your ears immediately objecting, you are highly likely listening to an improvement in home playback (given original context).
what is this getting at? external noise (aka Distortion) not only obscures micro-detail in the upper mids & treble, but it also causes listening fatigue and ultimately limits the volume you can listen comfortably at (ergo the thread title). i've found that external noise removal is a function of 3 efforts, all of which are equally important:
1) power conditioning
2) vibrations
3) room acoustics
(one visionary poster referred to them as the holy trinity of audio, i agree).
i figure i've put 10% of my audio budget into these 3, and it ultimately is the difference between a decent but disappointing rig, and a very satisfying one.
YMMV, but probably won't.
...on the music and situation.
Casual listening in the evening - fairly loud, enough for the music to have some impact.
The guys over for rock and roll - very loud.
My max is 85 - 90 db and I am usually at 75 - 80. My room is only 20 x 17 with large 3 way floor standing speakers. Anything above that and the sound overwhelms the room. The Soundstage becomes very blurred, highs get screechy, and it is uncomfortable to my ears.
That is one of my complaints at Audio Shows. The better rooms keep the db level in line with the size and acoustic treatments in the room. The rooms I really did not enjoy were small with db level in the 90 - 100db levels. Just too much noise and not enough music.
Regards
Richard
I used to listen loud sometimes but only when the gear could do an outstanding job of handling.
These pics are from the listening seat ~ 14' from spkrs. You may notice the SM57 next to the meter, as I was checking a few things.
I listen rather quietly. So my usual listening is in the 60dB to 70dB range.
Rarely I will 'crank it up' to 80dB and 80dB is LOUD.
When I go to the main local dealer, he always has it cranked way way too loud for my taste. naturally he is playing Diana Krall .. at over 100dB
I rarely exceed 90 db (at my seat) and that's pretty darned loud
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
...since anything over 85 dB is considered dangerous with exposure over time.
I'm talking at a normal level Now for 16 seconds:Here are some measured dB levels for that 16 Seconds:
63.3dBA Leq (Equivalent Average) This is the parameter that is used for the 8 hour Average limit for the workplace at 85dBA!
Note: It takes levels averaging at 85 dB for months or years to produce hearing loss - individual's mileage may vary. This measurement also uses an A-Weighting Filter on the signal before the measurement. The A-Weight network a crude adjustment of the signal so that it may numerically be compared to how loud to humans the signal appears to be. C Weighting is another filter used on the signal. It is essentially a flat bandpass filter with -3dB points at 40Hz and 8kHz with 2nd order slopes69.7dB LZeq this is the unweighted measured average over the 16 seconds (no A-Weighting applied). This the engineering measurement in dB ref to 20 micro Pascals of the pressure variations at the microphone.
89.0dBZ Peak - this is the unweighted maximum peak level of my voice talking. think off peak as the excursion inward or outward of your eardrum (or a microphone diaphragm). The peak to LEQ ratio expressed in dB is called the crest factor of the signal. Note that in this case - My Voice talking - the crest factor is almost 20dB. With voice or music this is a reasonable crest factor. In modern recordings you usually find the level compressed to between 10 to 13dB (sometimes even less). The effect of this compression is to make the production seem louder - and louder is better.
This level compression also makes it "safer" to play back on lower quality playback equipment a 20dB variation is a 10 to 1 ratio where a 10dB variaton is only 3.16:1. A 2.83 Volt signal from your amplifier might produce 85dB at your listening chair (pretty loud - but nowhere near live concert levels. - that same amplifier has to be able to pass 28.3 volts unclipped for a 20dB crest factor signal vs. only 9 volts or so for a 10dB crest factor.
Another way to think about this is that your power amplifier - when playing back most signals is wasting a lot of power capability - or is clipping a bit depending on the signal or playback level.
73.7dB LAFMax or 76.9dB LZFMax is the RMS averaged signal with an exponential RMS averaging time of 1/4 second ("F" is for "Fast".) This corresponds well to the loudness of fluctuating signals and is pretty close the dynamic behavior of the famous VU meter used in recording devices. Cheap sound level meters (not the expensive one I used) allow you to select FAST or Slow, and maybe Peak.) This one measures just about everything automatically.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Edits: 02/20/15
...for an informative post!
The OSHA chart starts at 90db
Permissible Noise Exposures
Duration per day, in hours/ Sound level in dB*
8 / 90
6 / 92
4 / 95
3 / 97
2 / 100
1.5 / 102
1 / 105
0.5 / 110
0.25 or less/ 115
*When measured on the A scale of a standard sound level meter at slow response. Source: 29 CFR 1910.95, Table G-16.
I think you were being too conservative, which is better than not being so. I think the type of sound and ones age play a role as well.
E
T
"Sound is measured in units called decibels. Sounds of less than 75 decibels, even after long exposure, are unlikely to cause hearing loss. However, long or repeated exposure to sounds at or above 85 decibels can cause hearing loss. The louder the sound, the shorter the amount of time it takes for NIHL to happen."
From The National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders (NIDCD) website.
I'm guessing that there's some pressure to keep the exposure levels listed on OSHA somewhat higher, but can't be certain what the reason is for the discrepancy.
Yes the OSHA numbers face pressure from business and is why I consider them at the limit. But "above 85 db" from NIH isn't a lot different than the OSHA numbers. I wouldn't do 100dB for two hours like the OSHA chart has.Also the nature of music which is mostly everchanging in level unless you listen to compressed pop is different than noise which is most often constant and varies little or not all all in the case of an engine etc.
E
T
Edits: 02/20/15
AC/DC loud
Stan Getz moderately loud
Eva Cassidy moderate
I generally listen louder than most based on observations of other's listening preferences.
Little Feat loud
Weather Report moderately loud
Joan Armatrading moderate
When the TOP horns kick in on the live version of Feat's Mercenary Territory it needs to be loud enough to send a chill down my spine and give me goose bumps. I love that.
I've been told I listen too loud.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Love jammin waiting for columbus loud. When fat man in the bathtub opens up that record you better believe its cranked. Same with feats dont fail me now. Man I wish they were as passionate about recording live gigs back in their hey day as they are now.
Have you heard and have a take on lowell george's solo album that came out back in the day? Its on my wish list.
I first learned of joan on an altec lansing demo record. If I remeber correctly. Enjoy her early work too.
All the best
I was at that concert they recorded at Lisner Auditorium. It was *marvelous*! The band sounded terrific and Lowell George was at the top of his form. One of the best concerts I've ever seen.
We miss you, Lowell!!!
-RW-
I remember reading how folks felt it may have been past their prime to have recorded a show then. I disagree. Personally I think the Time Loves a Hero album is great. And they sure didnt seem less effective.
Heck I wasnt even born yet. Its why I live for these classic live recordings of bands well before my time. I LOVE live recordings. 9 times out of 10 Id take the live version over studio of anything. But heck you take what you get. Wish more live recordings show up out of no where. Once in a while they surface.
BTW if you havnt heard it yet check out the Brothers of a Feather album. Its chris and rich robinson of black crowes fame. Its a live recording of em doing mainly blues / southern rock songs. They give a shout out to lowell and do Roll um Easy. Great rendition IMO. Love the black crowes and feel this album is up with their best work. Id be shocked if you didnt dig it.
All the best man. Your a lucky dog :)
Have you listened to The Band "Rock of Ages" or Tower of Power's "Live and in Living Color"? Two of my favorites.
Waiting For Columbus is still number one for me.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Well yeah I know Rock of Ages! They were a Band ;) that just oozed with character and talent. Love the story behind their name. And if were gonna talk live Band recordings one simply has to bring up The Last Waltz. Man they couldnt have known just how lucky they were not only to be attached to Dylan but also Scorsese. Jezz how much more recognition could a group get?!? My only complain of Waltz (well other than never seeing the glob of blow under Diamonds nose LOL) was for a film and soundtrack thats focus is music, there wasnt enough music!!! You have all these A list groups and musicians of the time in this amazing collaborative effort. And we only get to hear one or two songs by each!!! WTF... Why hasnt a more complete recording of this historic show not come out yet?!? Im aware of the expanded set of CDs that came out. But even that isnt very complete overall. Kinda like the additional Woodstock setup that came out. Better but no where near complete. Im as pissed at this as I am why who ever the greedy bastard is that still sitting on the tapes of SRV show for the MTV unplugged show. My god we only have this small body of work Stevie was able to do in his time here on earth. And heres this one amazing moment in MTV Unplugged history. Prob as good or possibly better than the Clapton recording, and thus far only one track has ever made the light of day. WTF....
I know and like Tower of Power. Cant say Im much of a seasoned listener to their work. Only have 3 or so of their albums. Including the great self titled one. Never heard the one you mention yet. Given your love for Band and Feat I have faith your taste ;) will have to seek it out now.
But if were talking brass incorporated rock, I have to hand it to my fav of all time thus far. Chicago. God its a tragedy so many folks today associate Chicago's sound with the schmaltzy Cetera 80s era sound. Its up there with Fleetwood Mac Peter Green era and Nicks era. Or Dire Straits money for nothing and the real overall Dire sound. CTA through III is just a trifecta of amazing opening work. I was just jammin the live at Carnegie the day before. Again, talent was just insane in that band and era. So sad how few today will know and hear it.
My dad really dug BS&T and that was my first exposure to brass rock of the era. I recently got Lighthouse One Fine Light at goodwill. I talk to allot of the older guys who frequent there and get to learn of bands I didnt know of before. They know I dig real music and we enjoy talking with each other. Cool dudes IMO. They told me how Lighthouse is another good brass rock band of the era.
Yup once upon a time real music was being made and the masses consumed it. Damn I hope such times come again....
Wait, what , There's an SRV unplugged and no CD release ......... !!!!
If anyone ever needed evidence that sobriety doesnt kill creativity look no further.
Clearly Ive no way of knowing theres more to this vid. But Id be pretty shocked all this was lined up so stevie could sit and do 3 songs or so. And still only pride and joy has ever been issued via sound board quality.
Youtube just clicked over to SRV and Albert King. Just an amazing session!
...is called "Thanks, I'll Eat It Here". I like it a lot. See link.
Joan is appearing at a local venue in what is being billed as her final tour. I waited too long and all the good seats are gone. Still might go.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Yup thats it. Was out and about and didnt have time to reference it for sure.
Lowell was extremely talented. Had an ear for good unique sound. Im glad he continued with the direction of the band despite creative differences within. Real shame he was lost so young and early. Ive no doubt he would have continued to make amazing music with time. And Ive no doubt he would have been better known. That being said musicians who know who was really great give him credit often.
And it was that Altec record I first heard Joan. Oddly enough I was about 19 or so and it was around the year 2000. Me and a close now gone friend found that LP by chance. We were both blown away by her performance. Bought the album, it could have been better, was off. Wonderful album start to finish.
I remember with that same friend in the same stash of LPs we also discovered the self titled Phoebe Snow LP. You know the one ;) And we both were just blown away and dug it from then on. Real shame she never found her footing so to say. I recently learned of her real life story. Wow, what a sad story. Her love for her challenged daughter is heart warming and breaking at the same time. As a single dad of a 6 y/o I just cant imagine what life may have been like for her trying to balance a performer's life and raising a special needs daughter on her own. Folks can say what they will about Howard Stern (and Im not a huge fan) but wow did he do a heart felt job eulogizing her passing on his show. And it really comes across just how much he liked her and her talent. Cant say I heard anyone else in mainstream media showing such an effort after her death. She was a massive talent and a true human being.
Hope you have fun at the Joan show.
While it warms up this morning.
I turn around and imagine the performers being behind me un-amplified. For parties you want the music to be low enough for talking around. But when I am alone I sometimes turn the volume up...
"I know when the mood hits me I'll pump it up but then I'm hearing for enjoyment not for critical."
From my experiences (listening and from a Sound Engineering instructor) low listening levels tend to obscure critical details.
Soulfood: "From my experiences low listening levels tend to obscure critical details".
Yes, Nuff said, guess who has the bad speakers and there are a lot of things you dont get, communicating is another which tops that list .......
LOL
Edits: 02/20/15 02/20/15
"Loudspeakers" is your interjection. Don't use me to hijack the thread.
"there are a lot of things you dont get, communicating is another which tops that list ......."
No, I'm not going to discuss speakers with you, here.
@soulfood,
You are the one "derailing" with conjecture and dogma, no discussion necessary..
Regards.
Not exactly true , It is true for systems which suffer from poor low level resolution and smearing. Low level and high level should only differ in that it sounds like you went from row 20 to row 5.
You need both good low and high level resolution to have good dynamics...
This is not a debate. Rarely do I listen critically. When I feel the need, I use more than one system/room, as does recording studios."Low level and high level should only differ in that it sounds like you went from row 20 to row 5."
Any venue or just the one in your head?
Edits: 02/20/15
Maybe you should update your ear/head cupcake, I used to design studio monitors when most got tired of that crap you use commercially, but go ahead tell me about studio deaf engineers who think they know resolution.
Regards..
"I used to design studio monitors when most got tired of that crap you use commercially..."
Don't you mean the crap you've been using? Besides, I don't get the loudspeaker fixation thing in this thread.
This is why you must have a loudspeaker capable of sounding very good at both low & high volume, few reviewers discuss this aspect. Many audiophiles listen at much too high volume levels.
"This is why you must have a loudspeaker capable of sounding very good at both low & high volume, few reviewers discuss this aspect."
Is this loudspeaker fanboy nonsense or do you have list of system independent speakers that qualify?
Remember because of the Fletcher Munsumn effect as you turn down the volume you roll off top and bottom. This is a natural occurrence of our hearing. In the studio when a client was unhappy with the sound I would pretend to make some adjustments but real only turn it up a little louder and the client would love it.
Alan
I listen in the 75db range but when wifey is out and a nice red wine is available I'll go 85db. That said, I am in the camp that there is a "perfect" loudness for most songs, sometimes louder is not better, sometimes it is. I just play with the remote volume till it sounds right.
Agree Totally, Each recording performance have that correct level t osound right, try playing BB King at 74 db ..... :)
Edits: 02/20/15 02/20/15
"That said, I am in the camp that there is a "perfect" loudness for most songs..."
That's fine by me however for casual listening, I'm more in the camp of best sound level for the room.
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