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In Reply to: RE: Do measurements matter? - linked article posted by morricab on January 26, 2015 at 01:19:53
Hi as i said accuracy in reproducing a signal is a basic concept in high fidelity
The principles are principles ...
If you send in a wave form and you get a very distorted one at the output is not good.
On principle.
If you send in a monotone signal and you get at the output many other signals not present in the original one again this is not good.
I would start with a test to screen out the not accurate systems, to move on maybe with listening tests.
I cannot say that good sounding systems cannot be also accurate of course. That would be the best.
But a system that distorts badly a signal or even more it generates signals not presented in the original input ... it lets me perplexed. Very.
And i also think that in the long term distortion is fatiguing.
It is like looking at something with wrong glasses. It stresses the brain.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 01/26/15 01/26/15Follow Ups:
Beppe61 is right on the money. High Fidelity.
You are thinking about this in the same way an engineer would typically look at this: distortion bad so I use my bag of tricks to reduce that distortion so that wave in = wave out. However, you have to realize that ALL amplification devices are inherently NON-linear and this means that they will all make extra harmonics in addition to the main signal and to one degree or another distort the waveform. That is the imperfect world we live in...no such thing as a truly linear amplification device.
Then in the 1930s a guy discovered that if you use negative feedback, suddenly the whole mess seems to disappear and it became standard engineering practice...along with push/pull circuits that partially cancel out even order distortion.
However, it was noticed by some that sound quality did not take a leap forward as someone who is obssessed with HOW MUCH distortion was present would have assumed. In fact, some felt that there was a big problem with the now orthodox view of applying feedback to "linearize" a circuit. No forethought was done to address if what was being done in the name of lower distortion was actually lower sounding to the listener.
This got some people thinking about HOW distortion is reduced and what side effects there are from those approaches and what it might be doing sonically that has a negative impact on perceived quality. It turns out that people are quite tolerant of even a few % 2nd order harmonic but may well be intolerant of < 0.1% ninth harmonic or even less tolerant of even higher orders.
Obviously a truly distortion free signal is desireable but it is not really possible at least not with current technology. What masquerades as almost "zero" distortion has been shown by Crowhurst and others to be nothing of the sort, which along with signal modulated noise floors, dynamic distortion, noise burst etc. seems that the distortion is shifted around but not really eliminated.
Your confusion arises from the thining that what is on the scope is what you hear...it is not really the case because also the scope doesn't often have the resolution necessary to show you all the really tiny distortions that seem innocent but may be very damaging to the sound.
Some distortions are fatiguing and some are simply invisible to your ear brain as they are masked by the ear/brains own mechanisms and distortions. High order harmonics are almost always fatiguing because it takes very high SPLs to generate them in your own ear and they are associated therefore with loudness. I think it is these high order harmonics that are the most damaging to soundstage and full 3d stereo imaging. They bring the perception of highs forward and thus shorten the depth and flatten the images.
Many no feedback amps, whatever their other flaws, have good long term listenability because they are creating a distortion pattern that is closer to nature and often have exceptionally 3d imagining and depth of soundstage because of a relative lack of high order harmonics that damage such perception.
"ALL amplification devices are inherently NON-linear"
Many class D amps measure very nearly perfectly linearly.
Hi and thanks for the very helpful explanation
But i have an opinion on why solid state usually sounds less musical, less "dynamic"
It is not for the use of negative feedback but more for the lack of enough capacitance in the power supply
This can be verified easily in those rare cases when an upgrade of capacitance is provided even from the factory for some SS power amps
Usually the upgraded version sounds more full, less noisy, more dynamic
If you increase the capacitance enough you can make a solid state amp sound like a tube one.Another point.
SE tube amps are usually tested with very efficient and easy loads
I would try a decent solid state amp with the same speakers and listen
I am sure the result would be equally satisfying
Try instead the SE tube amps with a difficult speaker ... and listen
I can agree that efficient speakers are much more amp friendly and maybe a smart choice in the end
Why to complicate life with difficul loads ?
I said about capacitance because i made some experiments that confirm this. The capacitance used in ss amps power supplies is usually too low
Because big and very good caps cost a lot indeed.
A good starting value could be good quality 20.000uF per voltage rail per channel
for a total of 80.000 uF for a stereo amp
Instead i have seen values of even 15.000 uF ... i can understand that then the resulting sound then is flat ...
Caps are like shock absorbers in a car ... if they are undersized and the road is bumpy the travel is not very pleasant.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 01/26/15 01/26/15
If you increase the capacitance enough you can make a solid state amp sound like a tube one.
I would not agree with this as I have heard amps with over 1 Farad (i.e. 1,000,000 uF) that still sounded nothing like a tube amp. It might sound more dynamic...or not. Clearly an amp will sound less dynamic with an underdeveloped power supply but it is not that all there is to it.
"SE tube amps are usually tested with very efficient and easy loads
I would try a decent solid state amp with the same speakers and listen
I am sure the result would be equally satisfying"
Have you done this experiment? I assure you I have and you would likely not believe the results if I tell you. I used to run my KR Audio VA350i on very difficult electrostatic speakers and not one SS amp ever sounded more dynamic. I had a similar results on a number of other speakers.
I have only had SS amps with very large power supplies so I don't know what amps you are referring to but I had ones with 100,000 to 250,000uF.
Hi and ok .. i trust you
i do not have a significant experience that tells me the opposite
And tube amps are usually more musical ... i agree.But what about a let's say good Naim integrated (even a small one) with your speakers ? have you tried it ? just out of curiosity ...
By the way i will try some hybrids one day.
I do not like the bass of the average tube amp and i cannot afford big money amps.
But hybrids can indeed get the best of the two worlds for reasonable money.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 01/27/15
Things are much much worse than you have described it. Actually, perhaps you've noticed, that almost ALL systems, even ones where the owner might swear up and down that the distortion has ben reduced to near ZERO, distort when the volume is pushed up past a certain point, that point in fact NOT that loud as to be confused with clipping or speaker distortion or any such thing. The distortion actually occurs at a fairly modest volume level. That should not happen. The reason for this distortion at rather modest loudness levels actually has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE AUDIO SIGNAL! It has nothing to do with the signal in the electronics, with the AC in the house power or power cords, in cabling or anywhere else in the system. This distortion is produced by information fields that interfere with the listener's hearing ability. The good sound, the real sound his system is producing is in the room, the acoustic waves are very accurate and complete. But because the INFORMATION WAVES are interfering with the listener's brain, confusing and affecting his PERCEPTION OF THE SOUND, what he actually hears is a more compressed, more distorted and noisier version of what's in the room. INFORMATION FIELDS are not electromagnetic in nature, and they do not attenuate over distance, even great distance. They are somewhat like the Higgs field in that respect.Cheers, GK
Edits: 01/26/15
"Things are much much worse than you have described it. Actually, perhaps you've noticed, that almost ALL systems, even ones where the owner might swear up and down that the distortion has ben reduced to near ZERO, distort when the volume is pushed up past a certain point, that point in fact NOT that loud as to be confused with clipping or speaker distortion or any such thing. The distortion actually occurs at a fairly modest volume level. That should not happen. The reason for this distortion at rather modest loudness levels actually has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE AUDIO SIGNAL! It has nothing to do with the signal in the electronics, with the AC in the house power or power cords, in cabling or anywhere else in the system. This distortion is produced by information fields that interfere with the listener's hearing ability. The good sound, the real sound his system is producing is in the room, the acoustic waves are very accurate and complete. But because the INFORMATION WAVES are interfering with the listener's brain, confusing and affecting his PERCEPTION OF THE SOUND, what he actually hears is a more compressed, more distorted and noisier version of what's in the room. INFORMATION FIELDS are not electromagnetic in nature, and they do not attenuate over distance, even great distance. They are somewhat like the Higgs field in that respect.
Cheers, GK "
Please define "information fields".
What are Information Fields? They are non electromagnetic fields that result when there are. Great many things of the same type. For example there is an Information Field for atoms and another one for electrons, the fields of which would very strong since the intensity of an Information Field is proportional to the number of things or objects that create the field. And the fields is a natural biproduct of the things or objects. It's when certain things or objects in the immediate surrounding represent a danger in the mind of the listener that his hearing is affected/degraded. This is especially true for such man made things as squares and rectangles but also phrases and even words. Thus simply throwing out old newspapers and magazines in and of itself will usually improve the sound. You would hear the sound as being less distorted and more transparent. Unfortunately there are a great many things in the local area that are linked to information fields of different types, all of which are bad for the sound. Term *Compact Disc* printed on all CDs, CD trays in cases and CDs cases in the world produces a very strong Information Field.
This is especially true for such man made things as squares and rectangles but also phrases and even words. Thus simply throwing out old newspapers and magazines in and of itself will usually improve the sound.About 25 to 30 years ago I was in a Medical records storage room where there was several long row of shelving about 7' or 8' high filled with paper folders of patient’s medical records. Just going from memory each row was about 40' long. If a person stood at one end and another person stood at the other end of a same row even when speaking very loudly neither person could hear the person on the other end of the row. LOL, even hollering at the top of the voice could hardly be heard. All the cardboard and paper was absorbing up the sound waves.
When I see photos of members systems with a whole wall full of vinyl records I wonder how all the record jackets are affecting the sound from the speakers in the room.
Sorry if wandered too much from your post.
Edits: 01/27/15
While I understand what you said what I'm talking about here is much more, uh, mysterious, what I'm referring to has nothing to do with things resonating or absorbing, nothing so mundane. What I am referring to is the effect of shapes and geometry on the listener, not on the audio signal or the acoustic waves. However, having got that off my chest, the albums are bad for the sound, though most audiophiles probably believe the albums are absorbing bad acoustic waves. The same problem with albums and CDs in terms of geometry is also the case for the room itself, you know, being square or rectangular, and I won't even get into the shape of the house itself and all the right angles. You can see how these shapes can produce information fields, no? Since there are SO MANY things in the WORLD that have that particular shape. Another way to look at it, all things being equal the same audio system would sound much better if it were inside a geodesic dome rather than an ordinary room of a house.
"all things being equal the same audio system would sound much better if it were inside a geodesic dome rather than an ordinary room of a house. "
How so?
Uh, because there aren't any 90 degree angles? Spherical things are found in Nature, but not square or rectangular things. They're so unnatural. Furthermore, even if you were blindfolded you would be affected by the change in geometry since it's an example of mind matter interaction, kind of like extra sensory perception.
Edits: 01/27/15
Wow! If tossing newspapers helps imagine how my sound will bloom when I delete your post!
Oh wait... Since the 'information field' doesn't decrease with distance and it still exists in your sent file folder and on Rod's server deleting it on mine won't help one iota! Rats.
What fun... Even audiophiles don't have to be serious ALL the time.
Rick
Fun, right? Next stop Teleportation Tweak and the Photos in the Freezer Tweak. Don't think with the Right Side of your brain so much. Oh, wait, I forgot, you only have a Right Side. Fun, fun, fun. :-}
Edits: 01/27/15
Like the Higgs Field? LOL. No, the Higgs field is something real that real scientists can write down math to define and explain, and it can be detected in expensive machines.
Information Fields as you have just described them are some BS that you made up, and have no other objective existence, let alone are the cause of audio distortion. A better name might be a Disinformation Field.
I know it's obvious but someone should say it.
Ah, now I see where you got the tox in beau tox. You little fukkers down under bite, eh? As for reality I may be slow but I'm ahead of you.
Edits: 01/26/15
Ahead of you? Mate, it's already the next day here.
'Fraid that ain't gonna do you much good, Mate. I'm many years in the future.Remember, it only has to be sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic.
Cheers
Edits: 01/27/15
"What are Information Fields? They are non electromagnetic fields that result when there are. Great many things of the same type. For example there is an Information Field for atoms and another one for electrons, the fields of which would very strong since the intensity of an Information Field is proportional to the number of things or objects that create the field. And the fields is a natural biproduct of the things or objects. It's when certain things or objects in the immediate surrounding represent a danger in the mind of the listener that his hearing is affected/degraded. This is especially true for such man made things as squares and rectangles but also phrases and even words. Thus simply throwing out old newspapers and magazines in and of itself will usually improve the sound. You would hear the sound as being less distorted and more transparent. Unfortunately there are a great many things in the local area that are linked to information fields of different types, all of which are bad for the sound. Term *Compact Disc* printed on all CDs, CD trays in cases and CDs cases in the world produces a very strong Information Field. "
Ok, whatever.
The young kids these days say, What Ev. And sign W and E. Just a heads up.
lol!
Nt
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