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In Reply to: RE: I was there once, but have turned to the other side! posted by stehno on November 15, 2014 at 07:49:37
There are several ways outside of pre-amplified gain stages, namely proper AC mgmt and proper vibration mgmt
My system is fed by two dedicated 20A lines utilizing hospital grade outlets. I use aftermarket shielded power cords. I was using them before and after the change. I am using a level of vibration control with pre, power and DAC.
It was that amp/preamp combo that drove my system further away from the live performance, becoming overly dynamic due to the electronics.
Mine draws me closer. "Jumpy" is not at all what I perceive with my gear (follow my moniker for details if interested). So, what amp/preamp combo should we avoid?
Follow Ups:
E-Stat asked, "So, what amp/preamp combo should we avoid?"
Well, if you understood the message I was trying to convey, based on my limited experience, having not tried every combo available, my hearing abilities, and where I'm at in my journey with my configuration, and my discoveries in the past years, I'd guess avoiding ALL amp/preamp combos except for the one I currently using is the safest response I could provide to such a question. :)
But even that response is only valid based on what I've done with the system elsewhere.
Most should agree that "high-end" audio is a lifelong journey for all of us with many never getting far from the starting gate even after 40 or 50 years.
Moreover, our playback systems are not unlike a vineyard, where every component, speaker, cable, etc. has its part in the vineyard and with little or no overlap into other parts of the vineyard. Except for AC/electrical mgmt and especially vibration mgmt which affects most/all parts of the vineyard.
And just like the probabilities are excellent that a fabulous bottle of wine will not be produced at the onset for one just starting out as a winemaker, so too is it highly unlikely that a new enthusiast's playback system's presentation will quite musical the first time out.
In other words, the best thing both the winedresser can spend on his vineyard and the audio enthusiast can spend on his pb system, is time.
Given all that it takes to produce a fine bottle of wine or a very musical playback system, your question is invalid as it does not take into consideration all other parts of the vineyard. Nor does it take into consideration short term vs long term goals, new discoveries, new technologies, where one is at in their journey, etc.
For example. One year ago, I would have laughed at the combo I'm using now, especially since my components no longer have any bling bling. But I didn't know then what I know now and today I laugh at the level of musicality and the combo I had one year ago. Even though my combo last year retailed for $17k and my combo this year retails for $4k.
And for all I know, at this accelerated rate, based on potential further discoveries or technologies, maybe next year my combo will retail for $500.
But the point being, much of what I've learned in the past year has nothing directly to do with a given amp/preamp combo. My current amp/preamp combo simply accentuates and hopefully capitalizes on what I've discovered elsewhere in the vineyard.
But I suppose all audio-related questions ought to be viewed in the same light.
when I switched to some fabulous nearly 600 wpc mono amps. It was that amp/preamp combo that drove my system further away from the live performance
disclosing what "that pre/amp combo" was?
Actually, I do mind as that would most likely send us down a rabbit hole and without any consideration for any of the other points I tried to make.
Never experienced "too much" dynamic range.
I never said anything about dynamic range.I was talking about dynamics specifically limited only to that of a note's initial attack or strike and how a certain combination of system configs, technologies employed, and power amplification combinations in conjunction with the amplified gain stage of an active preamp can send the entire musical presentation off course when striving toward the live performance or the absolute sound.
Edits: 11/15/14
I never said anything about dynamic range.
I'm trying to reconcile that comment with this previous one:
becoming overly dynamic due to the electronics.
How can a component be "overly dynamic" without saying "anything about dynamic range"?
I'm thoroughly confused by your commentary.
The dynamics, particularly the intial attack of a note induced by a strike, a pluck, or blatt, is not the same as the dynamic range of an entire musical piece such as a crenscendo or a complex music passage of many instruments.
Electronics and/or a not very-well-thought-out pb system can more easily cause the initial attack of a note (not the entire note) to sound as though it's in-your-face or inches from your ear. But far less likely to cause a full orchestra to perform in its entirety inches from your ear.
I suspect that some of this may have to do with some types of music being closely mic'ed. Where the mic's diaphram may be inches away from the instrument during the performance and become overly excited by the initial attack of a given note. If so, that gets transferred to the recoridng.
And if so, then it could stand to reason that an amplified gain stage captures most of that recording mic diaphragm's overexcitement and puts it right back in your face at playback time and there's no way around the essentially overamplification of this.
I'm reaching as that's just a guess.
Whatever it is, with a certian combination of variables in a system config, it can actually sound as though your ears are racing to be on the soundstage next to the instruments for the initial attack, but then your ears race back, planted well into the audience for the rest of the music.
I've encountered that very unnatural sound in my system in a big way with high-powered amps and amplified gain stage. Exchanging the active preamp with a passive volume attenuator put all the music back up on the soundstage so that it seemed as though my ears' perspective remained planted in the audience for perhaps 99.9% of all the music. Which to me is far more natural.
As a result, all the dynamics remained but now in a more natural way and with some distance, as everything was now occurring on the soundstage, not in my face.
But again, many things come into play to cause and cure. It's not JUST an amp/preamp combo problem, which is what I think you keep trying to keep this limited to. Try to assume there's more to the vineyard.
The dynamics, particularly the intial attack of a note induced by a strike, a pluck, or blatt, is not the same as the dynamic range of an entire musical pieceIt would seem we have a different definition to the word dynamic. Here's what I find in the dictionary:
relating to the volume of sound produced by an instrument, voice, or recording.
Volume. Contrast between loud and soft. Do you refer to transient response ?
What's yours?
Electronics and/or a not very-well-thought-out pb system can more easily cause the initial attack of a note (not the entire note) to sound as though it's in-your-face or inches from your ear.
That seems to be more imaging related than to that of dynamics. Or, driver overload.
And if so, then it could stand to reason that an amplified gain stage captures most of that recording mic diaphragm's overexcitement
A "diaphragm's overexcitement"? So, you find speakers that are faster than the instruments themselves? I sure haven't experience that and I use full range electrostats whose moving mass is less than the air around them. i enjoy the fact that the sound of a twelve string guitar has the speed and attack of the real thing. Like you find with Micheal Hedge's work. Or the percussive attack of a piano. For me, the ability for the signal chain to respond quickly renders a more natural result.
I've encountered that very unnatural sound in my system in a big way with high-powered amps and amplified gain stage.
That is quite understandable. I've heard plenty of mediocre high powered amps. :)
Edits: 11/15/14
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