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I would like some info on using passive components (volume control, preamp, or?) and if it is a viable option for my set-up.
I have Klipsch CF3's(about 98db), and was going to look for a tube integrated, but the idea occurred to me what if I bought just a amp and used a passive volume control. I will only be using one source, so I don't need switching.
Thanks
Follow Ups:
It depends entirely on what's important to you, actually.If you go passive, there are 3 (or 4) potential performance guarantees:
1) That's one less component that must deal with distortions induced by noisy AC, which everybody has.
2) You potentially eliminate any distortions most/all active preamps induce much distortion generated by an amplified gain stage.
3) If you go with a volume attenuator only, say built into your source, well, it's another guarantee that's one less chassis that no longer has to contend with distortions induced by air-borne or internally-generated vibrations (a power supply) nor a chassis that vibrates in sympathy by vibrations already captured by the chassis.
That alone is 3 potentially large sonic benefits right there. Assuming of course minimizing distortions is key to your goals.
But there is one more potential benefit of going with a passive volume attenuator.
4) Contrary to common folklore, the dynamics of a superior passive volume attenuator could and should actually draw you closer to the live performance.
This gets into that "jump" factor that we all find so impressive. An active preamp with its amplified gain stage and ample power from your amplifier can indeed cause the "jump" factor to occur frequently, particularly on various notes' initial attacks. In some cases, with very high powered amps combined with amplified gain stages from an active preamp, potentially every single initial attack of a note whether it be a stick, hammer, pluck, or blatt can induce this jump factor.
And though we all attribute that "jump" factor to be so much like live music, it's really nothing more than our being startled that our overamplified electronics startling us so much as to cause a "jump". When in reality, this jump factor, impressive as it may be, is actually taking you further from the live performanc rather than closer to it.
Think of it this way. Every time a .45 caliber gunshot goes off 5 ft. from you, you will jump. But how many times will that same .45 caliber gunshot cause you to jump if the gun is 30 or 40 ft. away? It won't. The dynamics remain the same but your perspective has changed.
Same goes for music reproduction and playback systems. Assume you have a well-thought-out system with superior soundstaging. Hence, giving the perspective that your ears are planted firmly in the audience and the musicians are 30 - 40 feet away on a soundstage. Unless you're listening at 105+ db, there should be nothing causing you to "jump". Just as though you're seated well into the audience at a live performace.
Now if your ears were able to unnaturally travel up to the soundstage and be placed right next to the instruments for every initial attack, then race back into the audience for the remainder of the note's sound, then this jump factor thing might be worth something.
I attest that it's sufficient amplification power combined with the amplified gain stage of an active preamp (aka the electronics) that induces this jump factor.
But by going with sufficient amplification power and a passive volume attenuator, you essentially are able to keep all the notes' initial attacks up on the soundstage where they belong with the rest of the music. In other words all the dynamics are there, they're just not in your face forcing this unnatural jump factor. Rather they are 30 - 40 feet away, where they should be and hence you are actually striving closer to the absolute sound or the live performance.
Even though your speakers are supposedly quite efficient at 98db, I would still opt for a higher powered amplifier and a passive volume attenuator as the high-powered amp will help ensure you're still getting all the dynamics you should get. Up on the soundstage.
So if absolutely minimizes distortions and inching your playback system's level of musicality toward the absolute sound is top priority, then you most likely must go the passive route.
If being up close and personal with your music with startling and potentially in-your-face dynamics causing you and your friends to jump every so often is most important, then you definitely want to stay with an active preamp.
My 2-cents.
Why a tube amp?
Edits: 11/14/14 11/14/14 11/14/14
I used a passive for about a decade with a combination that was well impedance matched with little capacitance: 70 ohm output CDP through 10k DACT attenuators using 80 pF cables into a 123k power amp. Truly it exhibited more resolution and better stage width than my active - which had only so so measurable separation in its line stage. It was only when I sold that CDP and purchased a new DAC that I was faced with experimenting again with the passive vs. active question. The new DAC didn't work as well passively.
I recently purchased a new Audio Research preamp to replace my old SP9 and now fully understand what Ralph Karsten and Charles Hansen have been saying all along - a really good (read ~$10k) preamp does excel at dynamics.
My revelation, however, revealed a different side to that equation. It's not so much the "jump factor" at the top of the dynamic scale you describe that I noticed most. What I hear is better low to moderate dynamics at reduced average output - but still able to clip the amp in a heartbeat if the content calls for it and I'm not careful with gain setting. Just as all manner of power conditioning and use of aftermarket cords can lower the noise level and create a "blacker" background, I am now enjoying a similar character with my new active that allows me to enjoy the music more realistically and at lower average levels than before - which my electrostats deliver convincingly.
I now believe the Achille's Heel of attenuator based passives is at the bottom end of the dynamic scale.
Hmmm, I used to own a $10k preamp. But that was before I turned to the other side once I realized after having spent a lot of money, I didn't need to spend a lot of money. :)
E-Stat, you bring up some good points that I omitted.
There are several ways outside of pre-amplified gain stages, namely proper AC mgmt and proper vibration mgmt. Line conditioning being the biggest part of the AC mgmt quotient. But not ALL manner of line conditioning as you say, since most line condtioners aren't worth owning. But yes, superior line conditioning will certainly help generate a more naturally dynamic music presentation.
I've always prided myself on having the most dynamic playback system I've ever encountered. One of the key things I omitted from my previous post was during those active preamp years, that was when my amplification was between 160 to 200 wpc.
What caused my system to become overly "jumpy" was when I switched to some fabulous nearly 600 wpc mono amps. It was that amp/preamp combo that drove my system further away from the live performance, becoming overly dynamic due to the electronics.
But with the 600 wpc amps and a passive volume attentuator, together with the additional benefits I listed earlier that now generates still one of the most dynamic playback systems I've heard (regardless of volume levels), only now it's a more naturally dynamic presentation with everything occurring up on the soundstage drawing me far closer to the live performance because of that and again because of the addtional benefits I mentioned earlier.
But yes, I'm pretty sure I would not be making this claim about wonderful dyanmics if I did not have my high-powered amps, nor if I did not go to extreme lengths to address proper AC mgmt nor proper vibration mgmt.
I omitted that 65% of my system's retail costs are dedicated just on those 2 mgmt areas. And I definitely would not have stated my claims without those foundational areas being properly addressed.
But as you allude, "high-end" audio being more of a journey, many such claims of performance can only be made based on where one is in their journey. Even then, that's not to say any that's any proof that any of us really know what we're talking about without actually hearing one's system for confirmation.
There are several ways outside of pre-amplified gain stages, namely proper AC mgmt and proper vibration mgmt
My system is fed by two dedicated 20A lines utilizing hospital grade outlets. I use aftermarket shielded power cords. I was using them before and after the change. I am using a level of vibration control with pre, power and DAC.
It was that amp/preamp combo that drove my system further away from the live performance, becoming overly dynamic due to the electronics.
Mine draws me closer. "Jumpy" is not at all what I perceive with my gear (follow my moniker for details if interested). So, what amp/preamp combo should we avoid?
E-Stat asked, "So, what amp/preamp combo should we avoid?"
Well, if you understood the message I was trying to convey, based on my limited experience, having not tried every combo available, my hearing abilities, and where I'm at in my journey with my configuration, and my discoveries in the past years, I'd guess avoiding ALL amp/preamp combos except for the one I currently using is the safest response I could provide to such a question. :)
But even that response is only valid based on what I've done with the system elsewhere.
Most should agree that "high-end" audio is a lifelong journey for all of us with many never getting far from the starting gate even after 40 or 50 years.
Moreover, our playback systems are not unlike a vineyard, where every component, speaker, cable, etc. has its part in the vineyard and with little or no overlap into other parts of the vineyard. Except for AC/electrical mgmt and especially vibration mgmt which affects most/all parts of the vineyard.
And just like the probabilities are excellent that a fabulous bottle of wine will not be produced at the onset for one just starting out as a winemaker, so too is it highly unlikely that a new enthusiast's playback system's presentation will quite musical the first time out.
In other words, the best thing both the winedresser can spend on his vineyard and the audio enthusiast can spend on his pb system, is time.
Given all that it takes to produce a fine bottle of wine or a very musical playback system, your question is invalid as it does not take into consideration all other parts of the vineyard. Nor does it take into consideration short term vs long term goals, new discoveries, new technologies, where one is at in their journey, etc.
For example. One year ago, I would have laughed at the combo I'm using now, especially since my components no longer have any bling bling. But I didn't know then what I know now and today I laugh at the level of musicality and the combo I had one year ago. Even though my combo last year retailed for $17k and my combo this year retails for $4k.
And for all I know, at this accelerated rate, based on potential further discoveries or technologies, maybe next year my combo will retail for $500.
But the point being, much of what I've learned in the past year has nothing directly to do with a given amp/preamp combo. My current amp/preamp combo simply accentuates and hopefully capitalizes on what I've discovered elsewhere in the vineyard.
But I suppose all audio-related questions ought to be viewed in the same light.
when I switched to some fabulous nearly 600 wpc mono amps. It was that amp/preamp combo that drove my system further away from the live performance
disclosing what "that pre/amp combo" was?
Actually, I do mind as that would most likely send us down a rabbit hole and without any consideration for any of the other points I tried to make.
Never experienced "too much" dynamic range.
I never said anything about dynamic range.I was talking about dynamics specifically limited only to that of a note's initial attack or strike and how a certain combination of system configs, technologies employed, and power amplification combinations in conjunction with the amplified gain stage of an active preamp can send the entire musical presentation off course when striving toward the live performance or the absolute sound.
Edits: 11/15/14
I never said anything about dynamic range.
I'm trying to reconcile that comment with this previous one:
becoming overly dynamic due to the electronics.
How can a component be "overly dynamic" without saying "anything about dynamic range"?
I'm thoroughly confused by your commentary.
The dynamics, particularly the intial attack of a note induced by a strike, a pluck, or blatt, is not the same as the dynamic range of an entire musical piece such as a crenscendo or a complex music passage of many instruments.
Electronics and/or a not very-well-thought-out pb system can more easily cause the initial attack of a note (not the entire note) to sound as though it's in-your-face or inches from your ear. But far less likely to cause a full orchestra to perform in its entirety inches from your ear.
I suspect that some of this may have to do with some types of music being closely mic'ed. Where the mic's diaphram may be inches away from the instrument during the performance and become overly excited by the initial attack of a given note. If so, that gets transferred to the recoridng.
And if so, then it could stand to reason that an amplified gain stage captures most of that recording mic diaphragm's overexcitement and puts it right back in your face at playback time and there's no way around the essentially overamplification of this.
I'm reaching as that's just a guess.
Whatever it is, with a certian combination of variables in a system config, it can actually sound as though your ears are racing to be on the soundstage next to the instruments for the initial attack, but then your ears race back, planted well into the audience for the rest of the music.
I've encountered that very unnatural sound in my system in a big way with high-powered amps and amplified gain stage. Exchanging the active preamp with a passive volume attenuator put all the music back up on the soundstage so that it seemed as though my ears' perspective remained planted in the audience for perhaps 99.9% of all the music. Which to me is far more natural.
As a result, all the dynamics remained but now in a more natural way and with some distance, as everything was now occurring on the soundstage, not in my face.
But again, many things come into play to cause and cure. It's not JUST an amp/preamp combo problem, which is what I think you keep trying to keep this limited to. Try to assume there's more to the vineyard.
The dynamics, particularly the intial attack of a note induced by a strike, a pluck, or blatt, is not the same as the dynamic range of an entire musical pieceIt would seem we have a different definition to the word dynamic. Here's what I find in the dictionary:
relating to the volume of sound produced by an instrument, voice, or recording.
Volume. Contrast between loud and soft. Do you refer to transient response ?
What's yours?
Electronics and/or a not very-well-thought-out pb system can more easily cause the initial attack of a note (not the entire note) to sound as though it's in-your-face or inches from your ear.
That seems to be more imaging related than to that of dynamics. Or, driver overload.
And if so, then it could stand to reason that an amplified gain stage captures most of that recording mic diaphragm's overexcitement
A "diaphragm's overexcitement"? So, you find speakers that are faster than the instruments themselves? I sure haven't experience that and I use full range electrostats whose moving mass is less than the air around them. i enjoy the fact that the sound of a twelve string guitar has the speed and attack of the real thing. Like you find with Micheal Hedge's work. Or the percussive attack of a piano. For me, the ability for the signal chain to respond quickly renders a more natural result.
I've encountered that very unnatural sound in my system in a big way with high-powered amps and amplified gain stage.
That is quite understandable. I've heard plenty of mediocre high powered amps. :)
Edits: 11/15/14
...I'll stick with my $25 attenuator and $15 switch, feeding a very expensive (parts) amplifier.
At the request of the Moderators,
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was less expensive than that!
SE-1 passive . I later built another using better parts and enjoyed that for well over a decade. Today, it sits on the shelf.
Naturally, non-experiential theorists like Kelly and Pat will call me an "elitist" for making that observation. :)
I still have the Radio Shack, it's better than the Alps Blue...but then so is everything else.
Closest to passive was an ARC LS-1 that I modified by 86ing the by-pass caps, upgrading those left, reducing the gain and replacing the Alps with a TKD pot. That was ARC neutral but not harsh up high.
And then there's the (cue celestial music) CAT SL-1 Signature MK III. Had one on loan a few years ago. Not at all neutral but oh-so-fine!
At the request of the Moderators,
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Of all the issues possible, the one which stands out as an audible change is some passives do not have a 'full' sound. they can sound 'thin' and weak.
Of any and all complaints, that is the one which is heard the most when passives are discussed.
The usual problem is caused by the combined and a not so good impedance problem between the parts..
dfs
I have a Arcam fmj CD23, it don't believe it has adjustable output, but the specs are; output level=2.3V,output impedance=50ohms.
Plenty of output there if you get a sensitive power amp. My CDP is about the same as your and I use it with two CJ SS amps that are 1V sensitive for full out @100K ohms. Even with that there is an occasional recording at a level low enough that full out cannot be achieved. I use a Placette resistor ladder passive.
ET
A lot of this depends on the input impedance of your amp, the output impedance of your source, and the lengths of cables that you need to run.
Luckily, just about any amp out there will have enough power for your speakers, so you have a lot of choices!
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