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In Reply to: RE: F.....ingly Loud posted by Stale on November 09, 2014 at 10:19:48
Easy to compensate for poor film making by distracting with a LOUD soundtrack.
Easy to create fake drama and excitement with a LOUD soundtrack.
So, easy to keep the budget down with a LOUD soundtrack.
Nolan seems a master at it (DK Rises was terrible and relied on a LOUD soundtrack).
As for LOUD concerts, most sound guys are nearly deaf, seemingly not too
bright and nobody wants to deal with them, so they can be sloppy and lame.
I seldom go to theaters anymore due to LOUD soundtracks.
We've been stuck with dumbass sound guys for decades: THAT'S not going to change.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure
Follow Ups:
That is an awfully big brush you are painting with...
"As for LOUD concerts, most sound guys are nearly deaf, seemingly not too
bright and nobody wants to deal with them, so they can be sloppy and lame."
So I take it you know allot of "sound guys"??!!??
Time to drop some knowledge...
Small venue live sound volume is typically dictated by how loud the snare drum is in that venue...guitars/instruments stage volume is a factor of how loud the instruments need to be for the musicians' to hear themselves over the snare drum...If you have a Captain Cave Man behind the kit, it makes it that much more difficult...
I have on several occasions dampened the snare drum with a bandanna taped to the top drum head and tape on the bottom drum head...this helps, but not all the time...
The main reason a drum riser is used, is to get the cymbals above the ears of the on stage players...this is something they truly appreciated...it also helps keeping the cymbals out of the vocal mikes...
Vocals are typically the only thing I ran through the monitors, some bass guitar in the drummers monitor and bass drum in the bass players monitor...
NOTE: I would "try" and have the drummer, tune his bass drum to the E string on the bass...this helps to make the rhythm section sound tighter, than they may actually be...
I would turn everything down as much as I could, just to make sure the vocals were clear and heard...
I would use a Spectrum Analyzer into a 1/3 Octave EQ to ring out the room with Pink Noise...I would make sure all the mikes were at the gain level for the gig, monitors were at volume and all mikes were hot...this would tame many of room nodes and would eliminate feedback from the on stage mikes 95% of the time...ALWAYS rolled back Highs and the deep bass...
50% of the musicians' wore ear plugs, not one drummer that I can remember...well...they are drummers...(What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend???? Homeless...)
I have had my personal hearing checked a few times through the years, at age 51, I have lost little of my top end hearing, but nothing that is not typical for my age, as per Ear Doctor...
As a nearly deaf, not too bright, difficult to deal with, sloppy and lame sound guy...I agree with you whole heartily...your giant generalization is spot on...I am truly sorry you have had to deal with dumbass sound guys for decades...how can I make this better for you???
Thanks
Mark
Agree whole heartedly with the drummer-driving-the-sound-level phenomenom. We had a drummer who couldn't play to the room and got childish when asked to bring the level down. We subsequently got disinvited to some regular gigs. I loved the guy but he was impossible to play with unless it was a large outdoor venue.
As a bass player who kinda runs sound I was frequently told the sound was well balanced but too loud. You can guess why.
Regards,
M&C
thanks
Mark
I have been to concerts with multiple performers who each had their own sound person. Given they all used the same sound system on the same stage, the range in quality and quantity of the sound could be stunning. One of the best sounding shows I have been to was Steely Dan outdoors at the state fair. Not an ideal setting by any means but the sound was amazing. A good sound person is worth their weight in beer and nachos!
Regards,
M&C
"A good sound person is worth their weight in beer and nachos!"
Hahahahahahahahaha!
My first experience with great sound in a not-audio-friendly venue was in the Brown County Arena in Green Bay, Wisconsin, way back in the 1970s, when I heard "The Carpenters". Seriously folks, it was damn near like a record. That sound engineering crew had it figured out.
:)
so, my apologies to you. Comment was based on personal experience playing in clubs/bars around SF for a few years,
and also from attending MANY, many shows in the area for most of my life, large venue and teeny.
Could be a regional thing. I tempered it as best I could.
How do you tell if the drum riser is level?
The drummer is drooling from both sides of his mouth.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
All good man....
What you described is way more true than false...
Funny how a guy can defensive over something he did 20+ years ago...
Thanks again for the good laugh...
Take care
Mark
"Small venue live sound volume is typically dictated by how loud the snare drum is in that venue...guitars/instruments stage volume is a factor of how loud the instruments need to be for the musicians' to hear themselves over the snare drum"
Actually, it's dictated by the least musical member of the band with regard to dynamics, which, in the case of a rock band, may be the drummer or one of the guitar players. However, the lead singer's sound SHOULD dictate the rest of the band's volume, not the snare drum.
"The main reason a drum riser is used, is to get the cymbals above the ears of the on stage players...this is something they truly appreciated...it also helps keeping the cymbals out of the vocal mikes..."
Hogwash. The main reason a drum riser is used is so people (bandmembers and audience) can see the drummer. And putting the cymbals 10 degrees higher actually puts them MORE in the vocal mics (not that it makes any difference!), since the vocal mics are typically angled upward.
"I would turn everything down as much as I could, just to make sure the vocals were clear and heard..."
Ummm, within the constraints of the afore-mentioned snare drum, I presume.
Eye-yie-yie.
"Actually, it's dictated by the least musical member of the band with regard to dynamics, which, in the case of a rock band, may be the drummer or one of the guitar players. However, the lead singer's sound SHOULD dictate the rest of the band's volume, not the snare drum."
Oh...ok...but does the vocal need to over the loudest Acoustic instrument...AKA snare drum...guitars, bass electric keys can always turned down...I have put guitar amp facing the wall and cover them up to keep stage volumes down...let the back of the amp set the stage volume...
"Hogwash. The main reason a drum riser is used is so people (bandmembers and audience) can see the drummer. And putting the cymbals 10 degrees higher actually puts them MORE in the vocal mics (not that it makes any difference!), since the vocal mics are typically angled upward"
If the drum riser is 3'-5' above the stage, you are wrong...
"Ummm, within the constraints of the afore-mentioned snare drum, I presume"
Give this man a cigar...
Vocals have always been my priority...
Have you ever ran live sound???
Thank you for your insightful prose...greatly appreciated...
Mark
"Have you ever ran live sound???"Yes.
It can be a bitch, but if you understand the physics (which I hope you've studied), you can work with the acoustics and adjust your system accordingly.
Edits: 11/10/14
You have never had snare drum issues?
Have you had band members complain about cymbals?
Does how hard the drummer play effect stage volume? How are those physics?
thanks
Mark
"You have never had snare drum issues?
Have you had band members complain about cymbals?
Does how hard the drummer play effect stage volume? How are those physics?
thanks
Mark "
Get a grip. Think. Re-read what I wrote. Study an actual book.
And, it's "affect", not "effect".
:(
Got it...does this effect you? ;)
thanks
Mark
Recommended Books?
I have not ran sound since 1991...no dog in this fight...so lighten up Francis...(see Sargent Hulka in the not too loud movie Stripes)...
Why are people so f'ing pissy on this site? I have appreciated all the good advice i have received and none of the "pissiness" has been directed at me, but shit, I'm a litigation lawyer and (to my utter amazement) even most lawyers aren't so crabby. Cheer up guys.
Kerry
I am not a pissy kind of guy...BUT I write, what I like to think is a thoughtful response defending sound guys and Inmate 51...says Hogwash to my personal experiences...that is how it starts...
Me Bad...won't engage again...
Thank you for pointing that out...I will take the high road...
Mark
did get a few laughs from picturing an angry guy with a physics text climbing about on stage… what an effect from an affected guy.
I am typically a guy that does not attack the "windmills" on an internet "hobby forum"....but he blinded me with....SCIENCE...
Now that I have thought about it...the spectrum analyzer, with the pink noise generator into a 1/3 octave EQ...that tames allot of physics...and feedback from the stage...along with room nodes...
Thanks again...
Mark
the "experience."
I find it all but impossible to attend popular music concerts anymore. I also find I enjoy music at home at far more subtle levels.
What has changed, from one generation to the other, is that visual stimuli now vies with noise. It appears the goal is to STUN the audience into submission.
I bet "Interstellar" soon will be employed by the "intel extractors" working hard for us at Guantanamo and other places.
Actually, I thought you were the reasonable one. So, if I were you, I would point at the other guy and say "he started it." I can tell you aren't a pissy kind of guy. I would have been ticked off too if I were a sound guy. And... don't get me wrong. I think it's all hilarious. It's not like I'm offended.
Kerry
Mark, look man, I'm not raggin' on ya. I'm just saying that the snare drum doesn't set the volume level for a band, unless it's a really bad drummer who doesn't have a clue (in which case, I'd go work for a different band!). Actually, now that I've said that, I remember back about 6 years ago when I played in a jazz big band. Our drummer sucked. He played too loud and he played too much. Not surprisingly, he also played in a rock band. A couple of times, he couldn't make a gig and we'd get this other guy, Paul, who was really good. Man, I wish he'd been our regular drummer!Anyway, now that you've said that you used a 3' - 5' riser, that makes some sense regarding getting the cymbals out of other players' ears. I'da never thought that. Did he have to keep his head down so as not to hit the ceiling? Heck, the late great Buddy Rich only used a 1' riser (6' x 6', no carpet). And then there's the excellent Steve Gadd, who can play as soft or as loud as the bandleader wants. I first heard him at the MENC convention in 1972(?) in Atlanta with the Eastman Studio Orchestra under the direction of Chuck Mangione. He's gone on to give many many many great performances since then! Have you seen him on Eric Clapton's 2001 "One More Car, One More Rider" DVD? Ditto for my good acquaintance Stockton Helbing, who for the past couple of years, has been Doc Severinsen's drummer (and formerly was Maynard Ferguson's drummer and music director). Following in the footsteps of Louis Bellson and Ed Shaughnessy, those be some big shoes to fill.
So, my point is simply, if you're setting the sound as dictated by the snare drum, that's not a good thing.
When I ran sound for a rock band, the snare wasn't ever an issue. "Boom" was an issue. "Bleed" was an issue. But not the snare drum or the cymbals. (Note to rock band sound guys: Use the 80 Hz roll-off switch on the mics.)
With regard to book recommendations, start with Harry Olson's "Music, Physics and Engineering". It pretty much establishes the foundation upon which you can explore further. Some of the examples are dated, but, fortunately, physics hasn't changed.
:)
Edits: 11/11/14
The more I have thought about this, I have to look at the era I ran sound...80's through 91...this was the era of BAD HAIR BANDS...24"-26" bass drums and 8"-12" snare drums...12" snare is cannon...literally...then they used 2B's for drum sticks, (baseball bats)...
I always look at Stewart Copland, played a Jazz kit, 18" bass drum, 5" snare and used 7A drumsticks...he is one of the all time heavy hitters behind the kit, but was never too loud and had great dynamics...he tailored his kit to compensate for how hard he beat those drums...
I had the opportunity to work with a great blues band, who had a drummer that recognized the venue he was playing in and adjusted his dynamics accordingly...With this band we had gig opening for B.B. King, Buddy Guy and Bo Diddley...one of the best gigs I have ever had...very cool...
I had my own system that I rented out to bands and it came with me, so I worked for allot of BAD bands...it was like trying to polish a turd...
My high water mark for a live show sound was Pat Methany at MT State University, he played one of cafeterias during his Off Ramp tour. This was the tour when he first used the Roland Guitar Synthesizer...he had 4 guitars on stands so he could just reach over and play them, start a sequencer loop playing different lines on each one, then went back to the Roland was playing church bells, with a Brazilian Percussionist that had 4 mikes panned around the room...he was waving a sheet of tin moving from mike to mike in one direction and moving his head in opposite direction chanting...it was just a surreal experience...
Thank you for book recommendation and your input...
I still stand by my thoughts on snare drums...setting stage volume...getting the vocals to come through was ALWAYS the priority...
I can respectfully agree to disagree...but hey, that's why they make Fords and Chevys...
take care
Mark
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