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For years I am complaining about the ridiculously loud concerts and movie theaters. I wear earplugs with me and use them any time we are at any amplified concert or theater, to my wife's annoyance.
Last night we went to see Interstellar and based on some reviews I had a feeling, bad one. So, I took with me radio shack meter, loaded one sound pressure meter app to my phone, one to my wife's, set to C weighted and went to theater and started to measure.
It was ridiculous. The peaks were over 110 db (RS over110, Apps 112/113. Whenever there was any action other than conversations average db level was around 85. Even with earplugs I did not enjoy it as a lot of the track were low frequencies not affected by earplugs.
Surprisingly, moments with no sound were very low, in the 40s with lower 41db. I was taking plugs on and off as I could barely hear dialog with plugs in, and could not stand the effect without them off. Women next to me used improvised ear plugs from Kleenex, and I noticed number of people putting fingers on their ears.
Are music and movie industries out of their minds? Is it possible that directors their audio professionals are so clueless to predict this will happen and that it is annoying?
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
Follow Ups:
The loudest movie I've attended was Prometheus at an Imax theater--I frequently had to plug my ears with my fingers!
The loudest concerts I've heard were Jimi Hendrix in 1970 (He warned us: "This is gonna be loud, but dig it anyway"--as a kid I thought the volume was awesome!) and Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow in 1975. My ears rang for days after both of them, and Rainbow was so loud that I felt dizzy and had to sit down for a while before I could drive home!
As a science fiction fan I thought the movie was fabulous. Loud, yes, but only in parts where what is being depicted should be loud (rocket launch, entering a black hole, etc). Still trying to figure out some of the plot lines/holes, etc - but that is typical of good sic-fi. I loved it - reminded me a little of First Contact, Gravity, 2001 among others.
If you are not a fan of the genre I can understand how the movie might be disappointing, but Jessica Chastain might ease the pain a little.
Nolan shoots Film on his Movies--maybe the Soundtrack is Analogue?--more Dynamics than
the usual Digital blandness--- Ah--Oooops!
Des
to action-action-and more action. And lots and lots of noise.
Plus, I'm convinced there's some psychological study that producers/directors know about that shows ultra-loud music, noises, and bright images impact weaker minds, creating some sort of "high."
Plots of popular films now are just excuses and vehicles for the FX companies and their budgets. Writing doesn't exist; create the most complex, ridiculous plot you can imagine. That's the new "art."
If you wish to experience a far better film that explores somewhat similar ground, see "The Wall," from Austria.
No FX, to speak of. Just good writing, acting, dialogue.
Nolan seems to have lost his touch, that's for sure.
"We are all in God's hands... and God is a malign thug."
-Mark Twain
You're giving too much credit to the audience. People aren't rebelling in droves against high sound levels. Most of these events are sold out or nearly so. I'm speaking of live concerts as well as nightclubs.
Not to pile on, but the sound QUALITY at many performances is also piss poor.
The reality is that there are enough people to fill these venues for these events. For the act, that's money in the bank.
When nobody comes, because it's going to be too loud, THAT'S when the bands will turn it down and find sound engineers who can still make it sound great.
It's all audience-driven.
Loud sells.
Movies have been a pet peeve for me for a long time even before 5.1 and surround theatres. Yes even before this the loud was often too loud and the quiet passages made dialog difficult to hear for even those with A+ hearing. 115dB during peaks wouldn't bother me though. 10dB from pain threshold and especially if it contained mainly LF from explosions which Hollywood is in love with for some reason.
As for loud at concert venues this has been gong on a long time. It's a rock and roll thing and has fanned out into other genres. I think they (whoever that is) think there is power in loudness and they want that association.
Proper ear plugs are really great. The best being the type where you get an earmold made of your ear and get a custom fit attenuating plug. The best are available in different attenuation levels (9,15,25dB) and have a chamber that lets in the proper amount of mid and high frequency. As most here know a regular earplug will kill mids and highs and occlude the ear canal which besides being a little uncomfortable after a time makes the sound of your own voice odd. See link.
I have custom made FITTED plugs which I use for shooting. However, at an indoor range I will STILL wear earmuffs OVER. At that point the majority of sound is transmitted thru my jawbone and skull.
I think the plugs alone are about 30db of attenuation. This is good for the 'impulse' of a firearm.
For outdoor only, just the earplugs are needed.
Too much is never enough
The final harry potter movie i went to see was he opposite it was much too queiet voices clear but not much bass everything sounded too flat.
the loudest i ever went to was alien vs predator. thembest sounding was promethius, snow white,and the huntsman and abraham lincoln vampire hunter.
Much has to do w/ the THX certification.
I think the motivation here is being heard over the crowd noise.... Often the crowd singing a rock tune along with the performers..... There's a fine line in regard to what loudness is ideal.
I think there's a stereotype that rock bands follow, even good ones, having to play ear-splitting loud. (Rush, my favorite rock band, is extremely loud.) I found this out the hard way, with temporary hearing loss (I might have even permanently lost half a decibel), and have been wearing "high fidelity" ear plugs to concerts ever since.
I doubt a given loudness level will make every concertgoer happy. The key is being prepared just in case it is too loud. Always bring ear plugs, just in case.
They charge extra for that 'privilege', so it is not even an issue for me. I took a look at the smallish theater room with loudspeakers positioned every 8 feet on the side. It looked like an ideal torture chamber for an audiophile!I find the sound in the normal Century theater rooms quite good and usually not too loud for the small theater space. It is a relatively new theater, maybe 2005 was their opening (?). Their old theaters, when they first upgraded to THX were abysmal with booming bass and disembodied music from the rear.
Concerts are a problem with rock and dance music. Always, too loud!
San Francisco Davies Symphony Hall and now their new Jazz Center are perfect, though.
Edits: 11/09/14
Not only are the main movies too loud but the previews of which they often show 5 or so are often ridiculously louder than the feature film and I always use earplugs for them. I have asked managers of movie theaters to turn the volume down and they usually say no problem but the volume remains the same. That in conjunction with people sitting nearby talking, eating loudly or checking their smartphones, uncomfortable seats, etc. makes watching dvd's at home more appealing.
nt
Dman
Analog Junkie
We saw Interstellar in a Harkins theater yesterday and maybe they turn things down a bit, but after the show, my wife and I both commented that it was one of the most intelligible movies we'd seen in a while. I understood about 99% of the dialog without trying and the music was not as loud as some of the other recent movies we've seen.
Maybe Harkins has listened to their customers.
Not Imax - We thought the sound was well done.
GG
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
Regular
Maybe they think big screen = loud soundtrack?
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
Lots of options, some have pretty flat frequency response, SPL reduction 5 dB to about 25 dB. I think these are 15dB, and cost under $15. Wonderful for loud concerts. They also have expensive ones, including some that get custom-molded to your ears by your neighborhood otolaryngologist for a few hundred bucks a pop, but I tried the cheapies first and liked them.
WW
"A man need merely light the filaments of his receiving set and the world's greatest artists will perform for him." Alfred N. Goldsmith, RCA, 1922
Last week in either USA Today or the Washington Post (I do not remember which newspaper) a film critic said the movie was too loud, was too bass-heavy, and had unintelligible dialogue.
I will wait for the Blu-ray release and view it with remote control in hand, possibly reducing the bass level as well.
I have tinnitus in both ears, and I'm pretty sure it was going to a few too many loud concerts in my youth, especially in small enclosed venues where the pressure waves get bounced around, one concert in paticular comes to mind; Van Halen's F-U-C-K tour @ Spectrum in Philly, that one was stupid LOUD! If I was smart I would've left but when you're young and invincible... Wish there was a fix for it, most of the time you don't notice it but when you do it is a distraction.
Had I known then what I know now.
sigh.
I saw that VH tour! One has to expect any rock concert to be 'loud'.
Yep...not until years later do your inner ears tell you that you were wrong.
Easy to compensate for poor film making by distracting with a LOUD soundtrack.
Easy to create fake drama and excitement with a LOUD soundtrack.
So, easy to keep the budget down with a LOUD soundtrack.
Nolan seems a master at it (DK Rises was terrible and relied on a LOUD soundtrack).
As for LOUD concerts, most sound guys are nearly deaf, seemingly not too
bright and nobody wants to deal with them, so they can be sloppy and lame.
I seldom go to theaters anymore due to LOUD soundtracks.
We've been stuck with dumbass sound guys for decades: THAT'S not going to change.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
That is an awfully big brush you are painting with...
"As for LOUD concerts, most sound guys are nearly deaf, seemingly not too
bright and nobody wants to deal with them, so they can be sloppy and lame."
So I take it you know allot of "sound guys"??!!??
Time to drop some knowledge...
Small venue live sound volume is typically dictated by how loud the snare drum is in that venue...guitars/instruments stage volume is a factor of how loud the instruments need to be for the musicians' to hear themselves over the snare drum...If you have a Captain Cave Man behind the kit, it makes it that much more difficult...
I have on several occasions dampened the snare drum with a bandanna taped to the top drum head and tape on the bottom drum head...this helps, but not all the time...
The main reason a drum riser is used, is to get the cymbals above the ears of the on stage players...this is something they truly appreciated...it also helps keeping the cymbals out of the vocal mikes...
Vocals are typically the only thing I ran through the monitors, some bass guitar in the drummers monitor and bass drum in the bass players monitor...
NOTE: I would "try" and have the drummer, tune his bass drum to the E string on the bass...this helps to make the rhythm section sound tighter, than they may actually be...
I would turn everything down as much as I could, just to make sure the vocals were clear and heard...
I would use a Spectrum Analyzer into a 1/3 Octave EQ to ring out the room with Pink Noise...I would make sure all the mikes were at the gain level for the gig, monitors were at volume and all mikes were hot...this would tame many of room nodes and would eliminate feedback from the on stage mikes 95% of the time...ALWAYS rolled back Highs and the deep bass...
50% of the musicians' wore ear plugs, not one drummer that I can remember...well...they are drummers...(What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend???? Homeless...)
I have had my personal hearing checked a few times through the years, at age 51, I have lost little of my top end hearing, but nothing that is not typical for my age, as per Ear Doctor...
As a nearly deaf, not too bright, difficult to deal with, sloppy and lame sound guy...I agree with you whole heartily...your giant generalization is spot on...I am truly sorry you have had to deal with dumbass sound guys for decades...how can I make this better for you???
Thanks
Mark
Agree whole heartedly with the drummer-driving-the-sound-level phenomenom. We had a drummer who couldn't play to the room and got childish when asked to bring the level down. We subsequently got disinvited to some regular gigs. I loved the guy but he was impossible to play with unless it was a large outdoor venue.
As a bass player who kinda runs sound I was frequently told the sound was well balanced but too loud. You can guess why.
Regards,
M&C
thanks
Mark
I have been to concerts with multiple performers who each had their own sound person. Given they all used the same sound system on the same stage, the range in quality and quantity of the sound could be stunning. One of the best sounding shows I have been to was Steely Dan outdoors at the state fair. Not an ideal setting by any means but the sound was amazing. A good sound person is worth their weight in beer and nachos!
Regards,
M&C
"A good sound person is worth their weight in beer and nachos!"
Hahahahahahahahaha!
My first experience with great sound in a not-audio-friendly venue was in the Brown County Arena in Green Bay, Wisconsin, way back in the 1970s, when I heard "The Carpenters". Seriously folks, it was damn near like a record. That sound engineering crew had it figured out.
:)
so, my apologies to you. Comment was based on personal experience playing in clubs/bars around SF for a few years,
and also from attending MANY, many shows in the area for most of my life, large venue and teeny.
Could be a regional thing. I tempered it as best I could.
How do you tell if the drum riser is level?
The drummer is drooling from both sides of his mouth.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
All good man....
What you described is way more true than false...
Funny how a guy can defensive over something he did 20+ years ago...
Thanks again for the good laugh...
Take care
Mark
"Small venue live sound volume is typically dictated by how loud the snare drum is in that venue...guitars/instruments stage volume is a factor of how loud the instruments need to be for the musicians' to hear themselves over the snare drum"
Actually, it's dictated by the least musical member of the band with regard to dynamics, which, in the case of a rock band, may be the drummer or one of the guitar players. However, the lead singer's sound SHOULD dictate the rest of the band's volume, not the snare drum.
"The main reason a drum riser is used, is to get the cymbals above the ears of the on stage players...this is something they truly appreciated...it also helps keeping the cymbals out of the vocal mikes..."
Hogwash. The main reason a drum riser is used is so people (bandmembers and audience) can see the drummer. And putting the cymbals 10 degrees higher actually puts them MORE in the vocal mics (not that it makes any difference!), since the vocal mics are typically angled upward.
"I would turn everything down as much as I could, just to make sure the vocals were clear and heard..."
Ummm, within the constraints of the afore-mentioned snare drum, I presume.
Eye-yie-yie.
"Actually, it's dictated by the least musical member of the band with regard to dynamics, which, in the case of a rock band, may be the drummer or one of the guitar players. However, the lead singer's sound SHOULD dictate the rest of the band's volume, not the snare drum."
Oh...ok...but does the vocal need to over the loudest Acoustic instrument...AKA snare drum...guitars, bass electric keys can always turned down...I have put guitar amp facing the wall and cover them up to keep stage volumes down...let the back of the amp set the stage volume...
"Hogwash. The main reason a drum riser is used is so people (bandmembers and audience) can see the drummer. And putting the cymbals 10 degrees higher actually puts them MORE in the vocal mics (not that it makes any difference!), since the vocal mics are typically angled upward"
If the drum riser is 3'-5' above the stage, you are wrong...
"Ummm, within the constraints of the afore-mentioned snare drum, I presume"
Give this man a cigar...
Vocals have always been my priority...
Have you ever ran live sound???
Thank you for your insightful prose...greatly appreciated...
Mark
"Have you ever ran live sound???"Yes.
It can be a bitch, but if you understand the physics (which I hope you've studied), you can work with the acoustics and adjust your system accordingly.
Edits: 11/10/14
You have never had snare drum issues?
Have you had band members complain about cymbals?
Does how hard the drummer play effect stage volume? How are those physics?
thanks
Mark
"You have never had snare drum issues?
Have you had band members complain about cymbals?
Does how hard the drummer play effect stage volume? How are those physics?
thanks
Mark "
Get a grip. Think. Re-read what I wrote. Study an actual book.
And, it's "affect", not "effect".
:(
Got it...does this effect you? ;)
thanks
Mark
Recommended Books?
I have not ran sound since 1991...no dog in this fight...so lighten up Francis...(see Sargent Hulka in the not too loud movie Stripes)...
Why are people so f'ing pissy on this site? I have appreciated all the good advice i have received and none of the "pissiness" has been directed at me, but shit, I'm a litigation lawyer and (to my utter amazement) even most lawyers aren't so crabby. Cheer up guys.
Kerry
I am not a pissy kind of guy...BUT I write, what I like to think is a thoughtful response defending sound guys and Inmate 51...says Hogwash to my personal experiences...that is how it starts...
Me Bad...won't engage again...
Thank you for pointing that out...I will take the high road...
Mark
did get a few laughs from picturing an angry guy with a physics text climbing about on stage… what an effect from an affected guy.
I am typically a guy that does not attack the "windmills" on an internet "hobby forum"....but he blinded me with....SCIENCE...
Now that I have thought about it...the spectrum analyzer, with the pink noise generator into a 1/3 octave EQ...that tames allot of physics...and feedback from the stage...along with room nodes...
Thanks again...
Mark
the "experience."
I find it all but impossible to attend popular music concerts anymore. I also find I enjoy music at home at far more subtle levels.
What has changed, from one generation to the other, is that visual stimuli now vies with noise. It appears the goal is to STUN the audience into submission.
I bet "Interstellar" soon will be employed by the "intel extractors" working hard for us at Guantanamo and other places.
Actually, I thought you were the reasonable one. So, if I were you, I would point at the other guy and say "he started it." I can tell you aren't a pissy kind of guy. I would have been ticked off too if I were a sound guy. And... don't get me wrong. I think it's all hilarious. It's not like I'm offended.
Kerry
Mark, look man, I'm not raggin' on ya. I'm just saying that the snare drum doesn't set the volume level for a band, unless it's a really bad drummer who doesn't have a clue (in which case, I'd go work for a different band!). Actually, now that I've said that, I remember back about 6 years ago when I played in a jazz big band. Our drummer sucked. He played too loud and he played too much. Not surprisingly, he also played in a rock band. A couple of times, he couldn't make a gig and we'd get this other guy, Paul, who was really good. Man, I wish he'd been our regular drummer!Anyway, now that you've said that you used a 3' - 5' riser, that makes some sense regarding getting the cymbals out of other players' ears. I'da never thought that. Did he have to keep his head down so as not to hit the ceiling? Heck, the late great Buddy Rich only used a 1' riser (6' x 6', no carpet). And then there's the excellent Steve Gadd, who can play as soft or as loud as the bandleader wants. I first heard him at the MENC convention in 1972(?) in Atlanta with the Eastman Studio Orchestra under the direction of Chuck Mangione. He's gone on to give many many many great performances since then! Have you seen him on Eric Clapton's 2001 "One More Car, One More Rider" DVD? Ditto for my good acquaintance Stockton Helbing, who for the past couple of years, has been Doc Severinsen's drummer (and formerly was Maynard Ferguson's drummer and music director). Following in the footsteps of Louis Bellson and Ed Shaughnessy, those be some big shoes to fill.
So, my point is simply, if you're setting the sound as dictated by the snare drum, that's not a good thing.
When I ran sound for a rock band, the snare wasn't ever an issue. "Boom" was an issue. "Bleed" was an issue. But not the snare drum or the cymbals. (Note to rock band sound guys: Use the 80 Hz roll-off switch on the mics.)
With regard to book recommendations, start with Harry Olson's "Music, Physics and Engineering". It pretty much establishes the foundation upon which you can explore further. Some of the examples are dated, but, fortunately, physics hasn't changed.
:)
Edits: 11/11/14
The more I have thought about this, I have to look at the era I ran sound...80's through 91...this was the era of BAD HAIR BANDS...24"-26" bass drums and 8"-12" snare drums...12" snare is cannon...literally...then they used 2B's for drum sticks, (baseball bats)...
I always look at Stewart Copland, played a Jazz kit, 18" bass drum, 5" snare and used 7A drumsticks...he is one of the all time heavy hitters behind the kit, but was never too loud and had great dynamics...he tailored his kit to compensate for how hard he beat those drums...
I had the opportunity to work with a great blues band, who had a drummer that recognized the venue he was playing in and adjusted his dynamics accordingly...With this band we had gig opening for B.B. King, Buddy Guy and Bo Diddley...one of the best gigs I have ever had...very cool...
I had my own system that I rented out to bands and it came with me, so I worked for allot of BAD bands...it was like trying to polish a turd...
My high water mark for a live show sound was Pat Methany at MT State University, he played one of cafeterias during his Off Ramp tour. This was the tour when he first used the Roland Guitar Synthesizer...he had 4 guitars on stands so he could just reach over and play them, start a sequencer loop playing different lines on each one, then went back to the Roland was playing church bells, with a Brazilian Percussionist that had 4 mikes panned around the room...he was waving a sheet of tin moving from mike to mike in one direction and moving his head in opposite direction chanting...it was just a surreal experience...
Thank you for book recommendation and your input...
I still stand by my thoughts on snare drums...setting stage volume...getting the vocals to come through was ALWAYS the priority...
I can respectfully agree to disagree...but hey, that's why they make Fords and Chevys...
take care
Mark
With all that volume, I still could not hear the dialog over 50% of the time...this was really frustrating...the bass was earth shaking...literally...
Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy also had very low vocals...even leaving Bane out of the equation...
My last really ear splitting concert was the Police's reunion tour at the Excel Energy center in St. Paul, MN...Andy Summers guitar is still ringing in my ears...that was one loud show...
thanks
Mark
Yup, chairs and floor was literally shaking from the bass.
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"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."
...saw it yesterday on a large XD screen.
Loudest film ever.
I agree. The last concert I went to I was probably 100 feet from the stage and I remember my pant legs vibrating. It is tolerable until you go to something like the Worlds Fair and the children are trapped and crying because it is so loud.
It's that very reason I don't go to movies anymore- in fact, I haven't gone to one in over 8 years because they are just too bloody loud!
Dman
Analog Junkie
"I haven't gone to one in over 8 years because they are just too bloody loud!"
INCOMPLETE... partial credit only.
They are ALSO just too bloody cold! And usually too drafty.
While the larger screen (compared with my 27" CRT Sony TV) is nice, few shows are worth it. My local theater was simul-showing the Met operas on Saturdays (maybe still are) and I love opera. But I came to realize that having to dress in ski gear and use at least 20dB Etymotic ear plugs made the experience worse than watching it on the little screen in a comfortable environment with better SQ.. Or just listening to a recording. On top of that, they don't serve wine...
Rick
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