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From the 20hz low note of an organ to 5k Hz put out by a piccolo seems to be the extreme range of musical instruments. Obviously there are other sounds - bird song, mosquitoes, crickets, bells, etc. that reach well above that. And some humans can hear a 20k frequency. But is it really essential that speakers designed for music reproduction reach that high?
For the record my hearing, except for the @$#&%s tinnitus, quits a little over 6k. That being the case I obviously cannot listen to the higher range and tell if it makes a difference.
Follow Ups:
The short answer is NO.I own a car that is capable of 170 mph+ (God bless Ferdinand Porsche).
Do I need it? No.It gives me the "wee giggles" running through the gears on the back roads, and puts a smile on my kids face when we "bend the law".
The bottom line is; If you can afford it (speakers, cars, boats, or whatever) and it puts a smile on your face, then go for it.
I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes, until the main course.......Meat; It's the right thing to do. Romans 14:2
Edits: 10/23/14
Best regards,
-reub
Very interesting. Especially the information that even those totally deaf react to high frequency sound (not consciously, just physiologically.
We are a more complex organism than most think.
Another thought occurs. Since one of the systems affected is the pleasure center might it be that some individuals can become addicted to music? In my own experience there are those who can take music or leave it (my wife and two children) and others (myself and the other two children) who find music an important part of their daily life and make time to just listen.
The addiction concept would explain this site. We are a group who have to have music, and have it in the purest form possible.
That's fine - there's no reason at all for me to question such a study.
The problem I have with it is that it's only considers the importance of an extended HF to the reproduction of high resolution digital recordings. It seems to ignore the negative effects possible of such a system when asked to play back HF limited recordings of questionable quality such as Redbook CDs and vinyl LPs.
As far as I can tell, given the nature of existing recordings, there's already plenty of issues getting out to 20kHz. This includes the low frequency limits imposed by most listening rooms - ie. how realistic/preferable is an unlimited high frequency range in a bass limited system. Having a system capable of going beyond 20kHz just doesn't seem practical in spite of the empirical evidence suggesting it can make a difference.
Yea sure given an exceptional, special or peculiar playback environment great - but for the rest of us there's really not much to get excited about.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Most electronics will reproduce well beyond 20KHz, generally leaving the speakers as the weak link. Ribbon tweeters respond well to information at 30KHz and above, so getting the ultrasonics into the listening room is not that difficult. Another tweeter type that comes to mind is piezo, but I wouldn't have them in my set up.
Redbook CD content is brickwall filtered before and after digital conversion, and except for omission the ultrasonics are not an issue.
Lesser digital formats have enough trouble with the parts we can hear that I can't imagine ultrasonics ever becoming an problem.
-reub
Many would answer no based on "humans can normally hear up to 20 kHz". This statement is incomplete. True, most can't hear a 20 kHz pure note, but most can hear the modulating effects of, say, a 25 kHz signal.
To take an extreme example. Let's say we have a 21.030 kHz signal superposed on a 21 kHz signal, we'll hear a 30 Hz beat signal. That's simple high school physics. Real life is more complicated than this but the principle herein illustrated should be adequately convincing that one can "hear" the effects of signals above 20 kHz.
I asked because with ears that stop at about 6khz music is still quite enjoyable, leading me to wonder if all the extra capacity was really needed. Form your comments it sounds like it does add significantly to the quality.
Even though it doesn't benefit me, I definitely would purchase speakers that reproduce the entire range. After all, my wife listens to music too and she can still hear a 20khz pure tone.
My quest now is to find a speaker that will go under 20hz. Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor just doesn't sound right with speakers that bottom at 35hz. Maybe a subwoofer?
If you want a REAL musical bass test, try Saint Sans Symphony #3 'with organ'. It has a fairly high amplitude 16hz pedal tone.
My subs works for that and now that my speakers are low cut below about 40hz, I can try it again without fear of 'doubling' my poor panels.
Too much is never enough
Years ago, the ENT I consulted almost laughed when I mentioned my hobby was hi-fi and my worries about tinnitus. He used a pitch fork with a high-pitched sound and asked me to guess what was its fundamental frequency. I was terribly off with the high number I mentioned. The tone was well below 10,000 Hz.
Most audiophiles live in a fantasy world. Keep enjoying your music.
so the more 'headroom' your system has in every sonic parameter the more it has the ability to 'suspend disbelief' and sound real.as far as upper frequency extension, there are ultra sonic overtones in music which may not show up in a hearing test but seem to matter when listening to music.
just listen to a super tweeter in and out of a system. no doubt something is missed when off, but it's hard to exactly define.
again we come back to real life having lots of headroom.
mikel
Edits: 10/20/14
Yeah, stuff one only hears in music because it is magic.
Given the perfect recording and ideal playback environment fine. But the vast majority of recordings and playback environments fall far short of the ideal.
There's no reason at all to assume perfect full range FR, perfect transient response and unlimited power/headroom are going to be ideal for any particular hi-fi application.
I mean it all sounds good but in practice I think time has proven objective performance takes a second seat to subjective listening preferences.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
For many years I lived with a system that had limited headroom. I dealt with distortion, clipping, blown fuses and a few blown drivers. Now I have a system that will play louder than my ears can stand, louder even than row 10 volume at a symphony concert. Now I adjust the volume until the recording sounds natural. The volume depends on the type of music and the perspective the producer chose when making the recording. I would never go back to a wimpy system incapable of sounding real.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
True, but what does that have to do with referring to high frequency reproduction as "headroom"?
The first thing to go in our hearing is the ability to hear higher frequencies and I don't think the ability of a system to play at higher volumes can remedy that condition.
One thing that may not be clear. The inability to hear sine waves at high frequencies does not imply the inability to benefit from extended high frequency response. Fifty years ago I could hear a 21 kHz sine wave, today it would be about 13 kHz in my best ear. However, I can still detect differences in sound quality when frequencies above 15 Khz are missing. I notice a loss of "air" with these recordings. Another way is on the dark side. Some recordings have noise at 15750 Hz caused by video interference. I can no longer hear this noise directly, but its presence imparts a grainy quality to these recordings. In some cases, filtering out is spike improves the sound quality.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
my point exactly.
thanks,
mikel
Tony, I have problems with this ability to detect frequencies that normal ears can't hear.
I just have the regular older guy ears so when some music on my system gets on my nerves because of some annoying lack of air or grit or whatever, I just call it a day and accept that I am a biological entity with vagaries that can't be (re)calibrated.
I have completely normal ears. Like yours, they aren't as good as they used to be. I commented on what I know to be true from editing recordings and filtering out "inaudible" high frequencies. Making these frequencies go away makes the music sound less lifelike. There are many mastering engineers in the same boat. Like other people they can perceive the "theoretically" impossible. But the theory is false. It assumes that acoustics and processing in the ear/brain/mind are linear and they are not. Linearity is a mathematical simplification. It does not apply to the real world. This is the same BS theory that says because nobody can hear 22 kHz sine waves that 44 kHz digital audio is sufficient.
I know I can't hear the TV set noise any longer (if I still had a CRT TV), but I can still hear changing the level of high frequencies above 15 Khz with an equalizer. Although lots of those high frequencies are supposedly inaudible to me compared to my youth, live concerts sound just as good as they used to.
But then, I never listened to rock music or went to rock concerts or worked with noisy power tools. Apart from specific health issues, most hearing loss is caused by excessive use, i.e. listening to many loud sounds.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"For many years I lived with a system that had limited headroom. I dealt with distortion, clipping, blown fuses and a few blown drivers. "Yea me too in the early 90s and before. I used to put a screwdriver in the fuse slot of my Polk Monitor 10Bs when I ran out of fuses - lost a couple of drivers that way. I kept them for almost 10 years.
That said you've got a great system Tony but not everyone around he is as fortunate as you - many of these people are where you were 40 years ago when you were just starting out.
And just to make sure this doesn't get lost in the shuffle - my point was for many/most people subjective performances trumps objective performance. I think that's been the hallmark of the high end since the majors got run off in the late 70s / early 80s.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Edits: 10/20/14
-
To better catch dinner no doubt.
Always heard it was in those frequencies where human speech is found. But birds and insects if you insist.
Actually, probably so we would not **be** dinner.
Birds are the early warning system of a predator close by.
nt
is determined by bandwidth.
As risabet said, wide bandwidth speakers provide related benefits, not just delivering 20k overtones per se.
Ah yes the importance of hearing clipping in all it's glory.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Don't! It's not rocket science.
It's one thing not to push our system into clipping and another reproducing a recording of a system pushed into clipping.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Edits: 10/20/14
clipping have to do with the original question, i.e. reproduction at 20 khz?
You've lost me, Goob.
You're the one who brought up transient response.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
don't have sufficient power bandwidth to 20khz. That's not a concern I have with my gear.
It's not because the amps don't have enough power - it's because they've got plenty to attempt to reproduce the ton of high frequencies required for the clipped signal. A wimpy amp doesn't have the juice required to blow the tweeters.
Speakers rolled of in the higher frequencies don't sound as bad as flat speakers approaching the limits of the amp or when reproducing recorded flat tops.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Since the speakers in my music systems are full range electrostats, I don't have any *tweeters* in them. On the other hand, I've yet to have a single one fail with other dynamic speakers I've owned since the 70s.
My former garage speakers were double New Advents. Four years running, I used that system for the neighbor's Halloween party. His daughter provided the compressed content and it was run wide open (fully 400 watts from a Threshold Stasis) for about five hours. One year, the woofer surrounds on a pair looked like someone had put them in a blender, but the ferrofluid cooled tweeters are still original 1978 units. A refoaming kit fixed the woofer situation.
Maybe it's time for you to change brands!
My point here though is a stereo sounds better when a system is approaching clipping or when reproducing less than perfect recordings if they are rolled off in the higher frequencies.
That's my point. This shouldn't be that difficult. If one listens to less than ideal recordings or pushes his system to it's limits a rolled off high frequency can be better than a flat one.
That's directly on the OP's topic and it's in direct conflict to your transient response comment.
Some will argue good recordings sound better with full range frequency response but I would counter about problems with low frequencies in normal rooms and other FR tilt/balance issues arising when attempting to circumvent LF responses without similar high frequency reductions. Not to mention that many recordings are eq'd hot.
Obviously I'm a proponent of a declining HF response. Doesn't mean you're or others are wrong - just means I'm happy as all get up and go compared to suffering via a full range frequency response.
I live in a real world but that's not a requirement for all audiophiles.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Moaning about tweeter failures is way off topic.
I'll repeat:
I agree with Mikel et al. The benefits of having a wide bandwith system are beyond simply the ability to reproduce a 20k signal. Phase and transient behavior is better IMHO.
Obviously I'm a proponent of a declining HF response.
I agree with that concept, but only in the choice of output level - NOT the inherent capability of the signal chain. A system that is incapable of reproducing a 20 khz signal will be inferior across the band to one that doesn't share that limitation.
Goober58, I think you missed the point of what E-Stat said, when you wrote:
"Ah yes the importance of hearing clipping in all it's glory. "
There is nothing inherent in reproducing a wide bandwidth, i.e., 20 Hz to 20 kHz which has anything to do with clipping.
If something is clipping, that's a flaw in the recording or in the reproduction.
In either case, intentionally limiting ALL of your recordings by rolling off the highs as a means of taming the bright recordings is quite an over-reaction from a sound reproduction standpoint. What about the recording which are a bit dull or "just right"?
I have records and CDs which are too bright, or too bassy. The way I tame them is to adjust the tone controls for those recordings. That's one of the reasons why tone controls were invented - so we can do that.
Clipping is an entirely different issue. It happens when a component is driven into obvious distortion and the peaks are literally chopped off. I mean that distinctly differently from "soft clipping", which is a characteristic of analog tape, and which allows the recording engineer to push the tape harder than it can perform linearly, thus improving SN ratio, but without the obvious artifacts of "hard clipping" which is characteristic of amps, speakers, and digital equipment. Now, if you wish to argue that even tape's "soft clipping" is what you meant, I would challenge you to hear three percent total harmonic distortion of a sine wave on tape. (If you prefer to use a more complex signal which has greater distortion masking ability, that's fine, too.)
The two primary failure modes of speakers are over-excursion and thermal overload. This is assuming the crossover components aren't the weak points.
An amp which is clipping can drive a driver into thermal overload. In other words, it's sending a higher level signal for a longer duration than the driver can take and continue to gracefully dissipate the heat. This results in thermal overload, and parts - typically voice coils and their connections - burn up.
Over-excursion failure happens when the amp tells the driver to "move this far" and the driver can't, thus breaking it. This will happen whether or not the amp is clipping.
There is also the issue of room acoustics. Particularly in a live room (lots of hard surfaces) and speakers with wide dispersion at upper frequencies, it's possible that the owner will think that the speakers are too bright.
Also, with speakers which have fairly narrow dispersion at upper frequencies, it's quite possible for the owner to perceive that the speakers are too bright when sitting within the upper frequency "beam", even though the room may be fairly "dead".
Lastly, it's quite possible that you have especially sensitive upper frequency hearing, or that you have a form of tinnitus which causes sound to sound distorted. Either of these conditions will cause a person to prefer a rolled-off upper frequency curve.
But, in NO case that I can think of can I agree with rolled-off upper FR curve as a matter of course for the general public.
OK, now I gotta warm-up for rehearsal!
:)
"There is nothing inherent in reproducing a wide bandwidth, i.e., 20 Hz to 20 kHz which has anything to do with clipping. "
I beg to differ. Kind of depends on ones selected recordings but I would suggest most high frequency information being reproduced is due to artifacts of the recording not musical content.
To me this seems obvious (its the system that sounds bad), others would chose to dismiss the recording (because it sounds bad).
It's much harder to find a system that sounds great on most recordings - much easier to do if one limits what gets played back. If someone wants to tell me the good stuff doesn't sound as good I'm not going to argue about it - that just isn't as important to me.
So there is no reason a system needs to be flat to 20khz and in truth there may be plenty of reasons why it should not be - as discussed in earlier comments.
I hope this is responsive to your point?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
"or that you have a form of tinnitus which causes sound to sound distorted"
Tinnitus can cause a sound to sound distorted? I didn't know that. Maybe my tweeters aren't shot, and the replacements aren't defective! That bears checking out.
Thanks Inmate 51. You may have solved a problem for me.
There is a difference.Also and I've been very clear about this - tweeter failures because of excessive high frequency energy - not off topic - goes to the sound of the system when borderline operational or dealing with less than ideal recordings. It's a fact of life for many of us.
"I agree with that concept, but only in the choice of output level - NOT the inherent capability of the signal chain. A system that is incapable of reproducing a 20 khz signal will be inferior across the band to one that doesn't share that limitation."
I think I questioned what "goes to" means in my original post to the OP. Down 3, 6, or even 12 db doesn't mean it doesn't go to 20K. It does/can indicate how it sounds when asked to reproduce those frequencies. My point here is that some roll off probably is a good thing if one doesn't have a full and extended bass response.
If ones using good recordings with good high frequencies flat is a good thing. But not all of us do that.
I checked your gear out - you got fantastic full range audio equipment. I'm sure you have the rooms and the recordings to justify it. Consider yourself lucky. I have two great audio systems too (neither one full range) - one in a bedroom and the other in a smaller bedroom.
I listen to all kinds of pop/rock recordings and venture to guess that less than 10% of them have useful energy beyond 15Khz (maybe much less). I'm betting your music collection is considerably different than mine.
That said I'm just trying to help answer the OPs question. And FWIW I haven't blown a driver since the 80s or very early 90 but I'm sure thousands and thousands of others are being blown every year.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Edits: 10/20/14
d
where and by whom is a different topic. And btw most speakers "go to" 20k but how much they roll off by then is really the question.
I've always thought a bit of roll off was best. My experience is taming hot recordings with rolled off highs is preferential to having a flat response to 20K. I'm a pop/rock fan and AFAIK most recordings don't extend beyond 14kHz or so. IMO much is gained by a high frequency roll off (and a low one too).
But ultimately it depends on the how the owner's purpose in owning his system.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
You might hear two speakers; one rated 3db down at 16.8K and another at 20k but prefer the 16.8K speaker. Numbers don't now, never have nor ever will tell the whole story. Generally speaking a higher response is or can be better. But it is a generalization.To your point about the fundamental frequency of instruments yes that's true but then there are harmonics and lots of other factors.
ET
Edits: 10/20/14
It's really a matter of opinion AND whether one can actually hear that high up.
My hearing is still good to just over 14khz, which is really pretty good considering I've played bass guitar in rock, punk and fusion bands for over 26 years now (meaning, I'm usually right beside the drummer!).
A thought- the Audio Research D-76a didn't got above 15khz! There is a design reason for that, but still it sounded great! Ironically, I didn't notice that last half octave of extension missing!
YMMV. Try some gear out that doesn't go beyond 15khz (there are still some speakers that fit that limit) against ones that do (and well beyond). Only you will be able to tell!
Dman
Analog Junkie
Yes, I want the full, natural musical spectrum w/o limitation.
your ears might not hear it but your bones just might ;)
My hearing stops at 8khz in one ear and 6khz in the other and there is tinnitus . Perhaps thats why I thought the famous KEF speaker sounded a little metallic. Ah, but then the Harbeths did not sound metallic at all. Sounds like there are strange things going on in these speakers versus ears matters.
Cheers
Bill
They rattle things, they overload my room and my wife keeps saying turn those things down. With speakers that only go down to around 35 I have none of those problems. I can play music much louder and my wife never says turn that thing down.
What I really think is important is that speakers have power and carry the tune in the lower octaves.
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
I think your original comments are fine. If you limit bass response, for cost or whatever other reason, if the highs aren't rolled off proportionally there's a good chance you end up with an overly bright sounding system.
Both my sets of speakers are down around 6db at 20K and both are down 3db by 40hz. In small rooms, hard floors and no drapes this sounds about perfect to me. More bass extension they would sound dark, more treble they would sound bright. I think that's how it works.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
.....there is a "K" in there.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
l
Beatnik's stuff http://web.me.com/jnr1/Site/Beatniks_Pictures.html
if only to minimize any phase shifts in the audible range. I can reliable hear out to about 16kHz based on the last hearing test, not bad for 54, but that upper range is important to the perception of fundamentals and instrumental timbre IME.
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
Edits: 10/19/14
I kind of expected that was the case.
Thanks for the quick response.
yes, but let's just say he overstates the case ... we're audiophiles, what kinda answer do you expect?
;-)
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