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"""• We're increasing the time for buyers to file merchandise disputes (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days.
• We're extending buyer protection to include item not received claims for custom made products.
• Because PayPal Seller Protection and Buyer Protection policies may vary from country to country, we're adding language to clarify which country's policy applies when a seller makes a sale to a buyer outside of the U.S."""Even more buyer friendly and 180 days? That is six months and potentially twice a products original warranty. Geez!
ET
Edits: 10/14/14Follow Ups:
Although Venmo is owned by Ebay/Paypal, it appears to be better option for sellers at least, as there is zero percentage taken out, and no protection offered to buyers.
Buyers however may not feel so secure using this method to pay for goods.
"We do not guarantee the identity of any Venmo App user or that a sender or a recipient can or will complete a transaction."
Free for everyone
Sending money is free when it comes from your Venmo Balance, bank account, or major debit card. Receiving money is always free.
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In another post I left about this subject, I stated that this policy was not changing the basics of eBay and making all sellers insurers. After some thought, there is one scenario which could occur that worries me. Obviously, an item can be damaged during shipping. It's always tough to know if that is what REALLY happened or something else. But now, with 180 days to make a claim, an unscrupulous buyer could use the iem for 5 months, break it, claim it was received in that state and open a claim. They should at least do something to preserve the status/condition of the item when it is received by the buyer. I haven't considered this before so my ideas are few but maybe requiring the buyer take some photos of the item within 24 hours of its receipt, pointing out any alleged defects???
Kerry
The new policy doesn't apply to goods damaged in shipping. It only applies to items not received or when an item was substantially different to what was ordered.
I recently filed a item not as described claim with epay. The left Channel of a ARC CA-50 integrated died after a couple hours of use. The cost of the item caused it to be handled by the high value auction claim division. Here is what he wanted me to do on my time to verify the condition:
"I am writing you today regarding the Audio Research CA50 Integrated Amplifier that you recently purchased. I understand that you opened a case because the item stopped working after a couple of hours of use. Allow me to explain the current status of your case.
Because this case is for an item of higher value, additional documentation is needed before we can move forward. This case has been placed on hold until 9/28/14, to allow you time to provide the additional information needed.
What do you need to do?
Please provide the following:
- Repair Estimate
Please provide a repair estimate. We need the manufacturer of the item or an authorized repair outlet to provide this documentation. We will use this information to confirm the item is not as described. Specifically, we need the repair estimate to show why the item is not as described.
Here are more details that must be included in the estimate:
- Overall description of the item
- Specific details why the item is not working properly
- Description of what needs to be repaired or replaced
- Contact information that includes name, address and phone number of the repair outlet
- Estimate of the cost to make the repair
Please *do not* have any repairs done.
How do you get the repair estimate to me?
This message has been forwarded to your personal email account from which you can respond with attachments. You can scan the additional documentation and send it as an attachment by replying to this email from your personal email account. Please do not change the subject line, as it will help the message get routed directly to me."
I did not take them up on their offer. It would have required me to send the unit back to ARC and they expected my to pay for it fully. I choose to deal directly with my American Express card. The seller refused to help in any way with the repair. Not defending ebay but everyone should realize they will not refund your money on high value items without some documentation.
I am happy you are in agreement with Paypal/ebay in this matter, since until recently they were the same company. My post was to counter the assertion that ebay/paypal will simply side with the buyer and refund his/her money with no regard to the seller's position. As a seller on ebay I am happy for this change, however, I am also happy this purchase was made with AMEX via paypal so I can ask for a charge back.
I'm not sure I'm seeing how that falls under "item substantially not as described."
Did you noticed the banner ebay has on every page that states: "Get the item you ordered or get your money back plus original shipping". Since the unit was advertised as working perfectly seems to me to be not as described, especially after purchasing a freshly calibrated tester which verified all the tubes ready for the scrap heap. Kalvin at ARC also recommended replacing the tubes.
Edits: 10/16/14
How did you not get the item that you ordered?
And by the way, this thread is about a PayPal policy, not eBay.
That wouldn't work. There's no way to prove when a digital photo was taken.
Well, if you require that the photo is taken and sent via email within 24 hours of receipt, wouldn't the time stamp on the email at least date the photo to then?
Of course that ignores the fact that an unscrupulous buyer can say "yeah yeah yeah, I'll send you that pic right away" and then not do it and still claim a refund in 5 months. in which case you are screwed because I would imagine that Paypal rules supersede whatever conflicting terms you may have.
But at least it's kind of a deterrent to scumbag buyers. It blows scumbag sellers out of the water however. I wonder what the ratio is on a large scale? Scumbag sellers to buyers? Maybe paypal is reacting to metrics?
180 days for returns does seem like an absurdly long time.
I stopped using Paypal a while ago, even for ebay items. I have discovered that many ebay sellers who own their own stores will gladly accept a variety of credit cards, or other forms of payment, if you ask them about it.
The only way for people to defeat the big monopolizers is to start working with, and trusting, others once again. Give peace a chance.
It's not for simple returns. It's only for items you paid for but haven't received, or for items that were significantly not as described. Not for "I don't like it" sort of returns.
I don't know why people are all up in arms about it.
... for a buyer to report "item not received" or "item not as described". If a buyer can't figure out if one of these two things is applicable within 30 days of purchase or receipt, then perhaps that buyer should be forced to avoid long-distance or online transactions. Craigslist might be a better choice for such a buyer.
Edits: 10/15/14 10/15/14
Some things may not ship within 30 days. PayPal isn't used just by people on eBay wanting to sell their junk or their latest yard sale find. It's also used by businesses that have no presence on eBay. If you're buying a custom item or an out of stock item, there may be delays.
As far as I'm concerned, this is a non-issue for honest sellers.
A estimated shipping date is usually provided in the details of the purchase agreement. 30 days time from the estimated shipping date (or the actual arrival date for "item not as described") should be more than enough time in most cases.
I can understand your viewpoint, but I can also see the potential for abuse in this new policy.
I just don't see any real potential. A customer that doesn't want to fuck with you within 45 days will suddenly want to fuck with you during days 46-180? Sure, they CAN do it if they choose to. But then there are all sorts of things people can do but generally don't. The guy in line behind me at the grocery store COULD shove a knife in my back. But that's never happened nor it it something I worry about when I'm in line at the grocery store.
Same way I feel about this new policy.
Yes, I'd say that the probability of the seller getting cheated is greater after day 45 - at least when the buyer knows that they have another 135 days left to return the item.
I agree with you in that the majority of buyers are not dishonest.
And, I agree with the others who say that more buyers are going to feel tempted to cheat a seller if they think they can *borrow* an item for six months at a time before returning it for a full refund.
They can't just borrow it. They have to show that either it wasn't received or they received something SUBSTANTIALLY different than what they ordered. As I said before, the 180 days doesn't apply to simple "I don't like it" returns.
So it's real simple. Always use a means of shipping that provides tracking, and don't send them a wheelbarrow when they've ordered a toaster. This should be par for the course for any seller, regardless if the terms are 45 days or 180 days.
It's not that hard for a buyer to swap out some old parts for some news parts in an item and then claim that the seller sold them something bogus.This actually happened to someone I know. A guy in China bought a pair of speakers from him, then removed the good working drivers and replaced them with identical looking bad drivers. Then, the buyer demanded a refund because the speakers "didn't play" and ebay decided against the seller. The seller was forced to refund the money, pay for all shipping costs, and accept the return of his "broken" speakers.
If the Chinese guy had borrowed the speakers for six months before altering and returning them I'm sure that the seller would have felt even worse than he already did, especially if he had already spent all of the money he received from the sale.
The other problem to consider is the time of the season. If, for instance, it is easier to sell an item around October/November for the Xmas/Hannukah season and a buyer buys the item at that time, but then holds onto it for six months before returning it, the seller will then be forced to wait for several more months more before re-listing and selling the item again in October, November, or December. 30 days for returns should be more than enough time...
Edits: 10/15/14 10/15/14 10/15/14 10/15/14 10/15/14
If a customer wants to screw you they're going to screw you. If they have 45 days to do it they'll do it within 45 days. I really don't think there's anyone out there to speak of that wouldn't do it within 45 days but would do it if they had 180 days.
Well, if the new policy is in effect we'll certainly find out what the screwmeisters are going to do.
I just want to make clear I'm not up in arms but this policy will be abused, perhaps seldom and I feel sorry for those it affects regardless of the final outcome.
ET
If a dishonest customer wants to fuck with you, they're not going to need another 135 days to do it. On the flip side, it will be a bit more difficult for a dishonest seller to string someone along for 180 days versus 45 days.
I'm not worried about this at all. I'm more worried about people like the clown who opened a PayPal claim just to cancel an order. Couldn't be bothered to call or email. Opened a damn PayPal claim.
It seems most Paypal policy changes over the years have been for the buyer and against the seller. Clearly they think that making their policies more buyer friendly is the key to making more money. They are right.
ET
I don't really see it as being against the seller. At least not against honest sellers.
You are in the minority and you seem to fail to realize that both buyers and sellers can be dishonest. Giving 6 months WILL result in more false claims. Period.
ET
.
Please PM me your eBay user name, I would like to add you to my list of banned buyers.
Don't be surprised if your local hifi shop won't take a return after 6 months...
As so many apparently have done. I dropped the whole thing about the time that FleaBay bought 'em and stopped accepting anything but PayPal as a way to pay for goods. And this clearly contravenes federal law.
Take a $1 bill out of your pocket. Look at it. Do you see the phrase "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private."? Why have the feds allowed FleaBay/PayPal to get away with this?
I refuse to use PayPal and their usurious 3.5% transaction tax...
-RW-
I'm not trying to be antagonistic (and I think the new PP policy is BS!) but why do you believe that it violates federal law and what does the new policy have to do with the quote you relayed from the dollar? I'm confused.
Kerry
Paypal seems to be run by a bunch of bullies and slimeballs but doesn't constitute illegality.
People might think they are safe when dealing with these *large, well-established* corporations when nothing could be further from the truth - as numerous successful and ongoing hacking attempts have shown and will continue to show.
I'll give (and take) good old-fashioned money for as long as I am able to, but that's just me...
Still don't see what the fuss is about.
As so many apparently have done. I dropped the whole thing about the time that FleaBay bought 'em and stopped accepting anything but PayPal as a way to pay for goods. And this clearly contravenes federal law.
What federal law is that, specifically?
You can also accept credit/debit card payments on eBay so I don't know what you mean by they stopped accepting anything but PayPal as a way to pay for goods.
Take a $1 bill out of your pocket. Look at it. Do you see the phrase "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private."? Why have the feds allowed FleaBay/PayPal to get away with this?
Get away with what? When you transact on PayPal, you are transacting in US dollars. What, you only want to accept payment from people stupid enough to send you cash in the mail? Do you live in Nigeria or something?
I refuse to use PayPal and their usurious 3.5% transaction tax...
Where do you get 3.5%? For domestic sales it's 2.9% of the sale plus 30 cents per transaction.
In the EU there is a 2 year minimum guarantee and in England you can make a claim against the manufacturer or trader for up to 6 years (5 years in Scotland) for faulty or misdescribed products.
So PayPal still falls way short of what is the legally required minimum here.
So you are saying a Sony TV sold here most often with a one year parts, 90 days labor warranty is two years for both there by law? The list of items that are quite expensive including tubes in tube amps that have short warranty periods is quite long.
ET
I think there is some confusion regarding just what this policy is about. My reading of the language of the policy is that they are extending the notification period from 45 days to 180 days to report items "Not Received and Significantly Not as Described." That does not mean that you become sn insurer for the TV you sell on eBay. It means that if you say that the TV is brand new and in mint condition, and an old clunker with a cracked screen arrives, the buyer has 180 days tp make the claim. If you clearly advertise the TV as "not working or for parts or repair" and include pictures and accurate descriptions etc., then you have not sent something "Significantly Not as Described." I think the enlargement of time is pretty stupid but it's not changing basics of eBay and making all sellers insurers.
Kerry
And how would you expect Paypal to determine whether the item was "not as described"? They'll most likely accept any such claim from the buyer, much like eBay usually does. Leaving the system ripe for abuse.
Yes. I agree that that can create a problem. See my other post in this same thread. It, basically, says just that.
Kerry
Yeah, pretty much but obviously not things that usually wear out within 2 years like brake pads or tyres.
Without a link to substantiate his claim, Awe-d-o-file is either misinformed or he's pulling your leg.
Here what paypal shows on their website:
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/security/safe-online-shopping
2. Your order arrives, but it's significantly different than it was described. There are a variety of scenarios that meet this condition, for instance:
You received a completely different item.
Example: You purchased a book, but received a DVD.
The item's condition was misrepresented.
Example: The listing said new but the item had clearly been used.
The item is missing parts or features, and this was not disclosed.
Example: The listing said batteries included - but they weren't.
You purchased a specific quantity of an item - but received the wrong amount.
Example: You purchased five pairs of fuzzy dice, but only received four.
The item was damaged en route to its destination.
Example: You bought a beautiful antique lamp - and it arrived in pieces.
You received a counterfeit version of the item.
Example: You purchased a Rolex but received a Faux-Lex.
The process here is the same as above - log in to your account and open a dispute to get the ball rolling.
3. You were charged for something you didn't purchase, and you report it immediately This may mean someone has used your PayPal account without authorization. As long as you report it within 60 days, PayPal will launch an investigation and you will be covered by our $0 Liability for Eligible Unauthorized Transactions program.
I need reminders that what I read on the Internet may not be true : )
ET
It's true. I got the 'Notice of Policy Updates' email from Paypal a few weeks ago. The changes go into effect on November 18th.
And it almost certainly means that I will not accept Paypal after November 18th for anything that I sell.
And it almost certainly means that I will not accept Paypal after November 18th for anything that I sell.
Why? Do you think you'll suddenly be besieged by people who wouldn't initiate a claim within 45 days but would between days 46 and 180?
Yes, I expect that will happen. It doesn't take deliberately mischievous buyers for this to be a problem. There are lots of "mostly" honest buyers who will realize after 45 days that they want to use the money for something else, and will file false "not as described" claims rather than deal with re-selling the item. Or a vintage used item that fails 4 months after purchase (it happens), and the buyer then blames the seller.
And yes, there will be some who will use this to get 6-month free "rentals". A 6-month free "rental" will be more enticing to these buyers than a 45-day "rental".
I am not interested in providing a 6-month free rental service to anyone willing to abuse the system (I'm a private seller - not a business). And definitely not interesting in using a payment services that forces such uncertainty on me.
Absolutely. IMO, many-to-most are already morally bankrupt.
A few months ago, I sold a 3-year old excellent condition $8k amp for $3k.
Compared to my new $2k amp that runs musical circles around the $8k amp, that 180 days allows the buyer that much time to let his friends convince him he could have done better.
Around month 5 buyer's remorse sets in so deep that he's willing to compromise what's left of his morals, have his soldering friend do something funky to the amp, then submit his claim to paypal that the amp wasn't what he thought he'd purchased.
Now I'd be out the $3k and I'd get back an amp that now has potentially no value or maybe it costs me $1800 to make it right, only to potentially go through the same thing with the next buyer.
No more paypal when selling after the 11/18.
Thank goodness I've already sold most of my big ticket items. I don't want nor need the anxiety of waiting 6 months to see how creative the buyer might be, entirely at my expense.
Somebody at Paypal is smokin' somethin.
I agree paypal sucks, but if you are a savvy seller you are still protected. By the time someone files a claim, you should have long since moved the money out of Paypal's reach. So, the scumbag buyer can return it, but can't force the money out of your pocket. Paypal takes the hit. Sure, you have to start a different paypal/ebay/etc account, but it beats eating a $3k or whatever loss.
Yes, Paypal sucks big time, as does eBay.
And no you cannot pull the funds. If the funds are not there for Paypal to take back, they automatically take the funds from one of your credit cards, if not a credit card, they will take it from your checking account, and you will not even know about it until long after it happened. Even when you have all the documentation, signatures, etc, it does not matter. They do what they want when they want.
Oh, and if you happened to have closed the credit card, Paypal still will take the funds from your closed credit card.
No, when ebay and Paypal get involved they control EVERYTHING and you are completely at the mercy of some $5 per hour employee who never purchased anything over $29.
Argh, I'm getting anxiety just thinking about Paypal.
yes, you can pull funds and have them beyond paypal's reach. I have done it more than once, when scumbag buyers tried to screw me over. To the tune of $1500+ total. paypal tried to collect on it, which of course went nowhere (since they had no leg to stand on, legally). I had to start new paypal accounts, but that's trivial.
They will not take funds from credit cards nor ACH withdrawals without authorization. You can easily prevent that but they won't even try in my experience - they know they would lose - one call from you to the bank would reverse that charge immediately. Banks will take your side in any of those situations, since their ass is on the line.
Good luck to them trying to take funds from a closed account, too. That's just not going to happen.
Play it safe, and paypal is the only one that takes the hit, if you are smart about it.
We’re increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days. All references in the User Agreement to “Opening a Dispute within 45 days” have been updated to reflect “Opening a Dispute within 180 days.” The Sections these changes appear include the Introduction, 3.15, 13.2 and 13.5.
The change is for real ...and desperately needed for those who need 180 days to tell a book from a DVD.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Buy a fishing rod or some golf clubs, use them for six months and send them back.
Does PayPal realize sellers are not rental agencies ?
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
and many may be warranted.
But how many posters are complaining directly to Audiogon/PayPal?
I appreciate this heads up and will complain to PP since I'm registered there. And that may have been ET's point, to stimulate action from others.
"You can’t know what the “best” is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn’t any such thing." HP
We're increasing the time for buyers to file merchandise disputes (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days.
Ridiculous!!
180 days to determine if the item is Significantly Not as Described? That's just B.S. So a buyer can use the item for 1/2 a year then file a dispute? Crazy.
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