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In Reply to: RE: Legacy Products That Out Perform Their Modern Counterparts posted by geezerrocket on September 02, 2014 at 10:45:40
that has not been significantly improved upon by its modern counterparts.
And this applies to legacy products that I loved at the time - original
Advent speakers, the KLH fm tuner, the McIntosh MA5100 integrated amp,
to name a few I'm familiar with. Yes, some of the older gear still looks
better than newer gear - the Empire turntable comes immediately to mind,
as do some of the original Marantz pieces, but looks are not pleasing to
the ear, only the eye. Which is not to say that some of this legacy
gear was not SOTA for its time, because it certainly was. But it can't
keep up today.
I'd like to hear any combination of vintage gear which can compare
sonically to a system consisting of modern large Magnepans, VTL amps,
and a high quality TT and cartridge setup. I just don't think it's
possbile. Time and technology march relentlessly on.
Follow Ups:
I met and talked to Richard Sequerra on the introduction of his new tuner (Day Sequerra). When told I owned a 10B he told me NOT to buy the new tuner, as it was better in performance only above 15kHz and few FM stations had usable FR that high. This improvement was only due to digital filtering, as I recall.The 10B in factory alignment, was as close to theoretically possible as you could get, he told me. Not bad for a component designed in the mid 60's (of course, it did drive Saul Marantz bankrupt).
Not components per se, but consider the demand for vintage output transformers. Many command very high prices and although there are reissues of the vintage designs, many still prefer the originals ( maybe because they are already broken in ). These include the vintage Marantz iron as well as the ALtec/Peerless iron (particularly the 20-20 series).
Modern manufacturer MFA used to cannibalize old Altec outputs as well as Citation outputs and Ampex outputs for their modern offerings until the supply ran dry. The original Carver Silver 7 250 watt tube power amp used Dyna A-440 output transformers but too few of them remained for them to use for their eventual production run. The general consensus was the newer remanufactured ones were not quite as good as the original Dyna units and Dyna was considered a second tier transformer manufacturer.
And then consider that there have been no really new tube design configurations for the past 25 years or so (maybe a lot longer, judging from what I see). Ultralinear amp designs have been around since, what, 1955 or thereabouts (IIRC, original patents were taken out in 1954)? Cathode follower designs were used on the Marantz 1 (1954) and probably earlier and still being used today.
One needs only to take a quick glance at Ebay to realize that vintage tubes command very high demand and prices. While newer production strives to emulate older designs (note the reissue Gold Lion, Tungsol, etc), the originals still command respect, high demand, and high prices. Try buying an NOS 300B, wholesaling for $18.50 in 1986.... Even in a modern amp, the original sounds much better to my ears (in various Cary amps, and a Wyetech as well as a Wright amp, all "modern" designs with modern parts).
of course YMMVStill, if you take the best of the 60's and compare to the best of each of the following decades, the increase in performance is relatively small. Convenience factor increases a lot, though. A 60's state of the art system would be easy to live with even today ( probably a lot more reliable too)
Older technology had limitations, primarily materials availability ( no teflons, limited plastics, no really high tolerance resistors, etc.), but where they could apply their technology they certainly did and did so superbly. Transformers and tubes were superb even by todays standards.I have restored and souped up some highly neglected Dyna units: PAS3s and ST-70s, and equipped with modern parts they can sound amazingly good, well maybe not as good as a five digit costing component, but more than holding its own against the typical middle audiophile market.
You have to be willing to make that investment however. It takes time, or money...
Edits: 09/03/14 09/03/14
I'll see your large Maggies, new VTLs, and new vinyl rig with the following:
Apogee Diva loudspeakers, Krell KRS series amps, CAT SL1 preamp, Sota Star Sapphire with ET2 arm, and a top notch cartridge from that era.
Pretty sure it would come down to a matter of preference, and I don't think the "modern" system would come anywhere close to trouncing my described (25+ year old) system.
I'll see your Divas and Krells with my Divas driven by two Audio Research D-250 Mk II Servo stereo amps in a bi-amp arrangement. Divas deserve big tube amps ;)
But I do agree with your sentiment about how we really haven't progressed all that much in audio, if at all. For example, there is nothing out there today to make me want to replace the Divas, and I've listened to most of the mega-buck contenders, usually cones-in-a-box.
___
Brian
Hello,
I see in an old thread, that you have a good copy of the cal procedure for the Triplett 3444a. Would it be possible to get a copy?
Thanks,
Steve
Well, I've not heard any of the components you list, but I know all are
well thought of. I've never been a fan of Krell product, but I suspect
it would be difficult to find a better ss amp from that era.
That line of thought has lead many people to needlessly dump vast bucketloads of cash...
An amp isn't just a simple box that sits between a source (and, likely a preamp/linestage) and a loudspeaker. If you want great sound, you can't say THIS amp is better than THAT amp, unless you qualify/quantify that statement by including the rest of the system.
To clarify that statement?
The Krell KRS amps were INCREDIBLE on the Divas. They were pretty great on the B&W 801 Matrix. They weren't so great on the Infinity IRS Beta.
A Threshold amp? was OK on the Divas, did better on the B&Ws and Infinitys.
A Sumo amp? Was quite nice on the 801s, not horrible on the Infinitys, but pretty sad on the Divas - even a pair of "lowly" Adcoms was better on the Divas.
So - which amp is better?
p.s.: As a footnote? Often heard Counterpoint amps driving the Infinity Betas and some Apogee Duettas. On the Infinity? Could be breathtaking. On the Apogees? Could be sleep inducing.
Not about comparing disparate brands and products, but rather as the post says:
"I read quite often here and elsewhere where audiophiles prefer the sound of a company's older legacy product(s) versus their newer or latest version. "
I cannot think of a single example where the "legacy" product from a single brand is better than the current product. So is the KRS "better" than the current "Solo" models? Is any Threshold (I have a Stasis 3 myself) better than a Pass Labs XS amp?
Technically we can do better, but it's angels dancing on the head of a pin; I think we maxed out in terms of audible performance quite a while ago, as that system would certainly show. Alas, all of it far beyond my pay grade.
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