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24.21.8.3
In Reply to: RE: A list of sonic properties "un-measurable" (or, not easily measured)? posted by genungo on July 28, 2014 at 20:15:20
Very good question. Clearly there are audible distortions. And though I never want to diminish the importance of quality-oriented components, what you are really alluding to are the inaudible distortions that so greatly raise the noise floor that I would attest the vast majority of music info embedded in the recording, though processed, remains inaudible below the much raised noise floor.
So severe is this problem that Robert Harley, editor-in-chief at TAS speculated in the Mar/Apr, 2009 issue, "I believe that something catastrophic occurs at the recording mic's diaphragms so that much of the music never makes it to the recording." Paraphrased.
I agree with Harley that something catastrophic is occurring so that much of the music remains inaudible but I disagree with his speculation that it's at the recording mic's and can even demonstrate that the problem is not at the recording mic's. But it's this catastrophic element that puts a serious governor on every last playback system so that in the end, every well-thought-out playback system sounds more alike than they do different. And none of them sound even remotely close to the live performance.
Even John Curl admitted a few years ago that all of his designs and others' designs too contain unknown serious deficiencies, as do their sensitive measuring instruments.
Follow Ups:
Most would agree with that basic sentiment, I think. There are things fundamentally wrong with record playback and we all want to find out exactly what it is.To me, one of the strangest things about record playback is that moments of glory really do exist. Every once in a while, the realism of my system startles me and I'm left scratching my balls in wonder. The man wakes up for a few seconds, only to slide back into sleep again. What do I believe is happening? I believe that the dispersion characteristics of my speakers are matching those of real instruments more closely than usual during those special moments.
Maybe it's my optimistic nature, but my hope has always been that the primary difference between live music and recorded music has to do with way the sound is dispersed into the room. I'm sure that there are other major problems as well, but to my mind this is one of the more glaring problems we face in record playback. We know that many musical instruments disperse sound much differently than loudspeakers do. Some loudspeakers come slightly closer than others to mimicking the dispersion characteristics of real instruments but, as far as my ears can tell, the differences between live and recorded playback are pretty significant ones.
In the future, I think that headphone systems will be the first types of systems to crack the dispersion problem. It's not that headphones are intrinsically better than loudspeakers, it's just that the headphone environment is easier to control. And so, as headphones systems become more and more sophisticated I expect that we'll see some ear-popping gains in realism.
I hope that I'm not wrong about this because I really want to see something change.
Edits: 07/30/14 07/30/14 07/30/14
When it comes to headphones I think the detail and cohesiveness I hear in the music is great but the soundstage is unnatural.
My stereo system is certainly better at presenting a "closer" to live performance soundstage that automatically gives me an improved experience.
I think I agree with your prediction that headphone music reproduction could be improved but I'm thinking that the improvement will come from the recording method........not the headphone itself.
Traditionally, music has been recorded/mastered for two channel stereo systems expecting that to be the playback method.
Right and left channels are mixed to try to give the sense of a spatial soundstage from a live performance. It seems to work best with stereo setup. From my experience loudspeaker placement adjustments can have a significant impact on the soundstage.
I think having headphones directly on hour ears defeat the mixing for traditionally recordings. If the music were mixed specifically for headphones I think there could be huge improvements.
With the increased popularity of headphones this may be the direction of future music recording. I suggest you check out some binaural recording on some headphones to give you an id each what is possible. The directionality of the sounds can almost be disturbingly true to life.
Brendan
Actually, I do have a pretty nice headphone system and I also have some excellent binaural recordings.One of the first things I say to those who complain about the deficiencies of headphones is, "Try some binaural recordings." The only problem is, there are so few binaural recordings available. Chesky Records makes the finest ones available today, IMO, but the selection is still quite limited.
Binaural goes a long way toward making headphone listening sound more natural, but better recordings are only the first step toward more realism in headphone listening. Products such as the Smyth Realiser have already demonstrated that. That said, there are more sophisticated surprises to come in the not too distant future...
The best article I know of on the future of audio engineering (headphone tech in particular) is in the March 2014 issue of Stereophile magazine. "Audio Engineering - The Next 40 years" by John La Grou lays it all out and I suggest that everyone here give it a read. The future is looking brighter for audio enthusiasts in general, but those who are looking forward might want to start getting used to wearing headphones.
Edits: 07/31/14 07/31/14
I'll give the article a read. Thanks for the suggestion.
I think you are correct with the direction of audio heading towards headphones.
It does bring up another basic unmeasurable item that lacks in headphone playback..........physical acoustic energy in the room.
The most obvious example being the "thump" you feel in you chest with heavy bass reproduction.
There is a hard to describe feeling of energy "in the air" when listening to live performances......especially in small intimate settings that certainly increases impact of the music.
Great stereo systems can achieve some of this at reasonable listening levels.......crappy system can achieve some at obnoxious listening levels at the expense of quality.
Headphones?......seems tough to get there.
Brendan
Some headgeeks (including myself) have experimented with subwoofers. It is a pretty effective way to add that missing dimension or sense of "touch" to your headphone listening session.Use your preamp outs or split the signal going to your amp to run the sub at line level. I recommend using the highest crossover setting. Place the sub fairly close to the listening seat and adjust volume to taste. You should then be able "feel" the bass, both in the air and in your body.
Some headphones being made today (especially planars such as those made by Audeze), have such strong bass that you can really feel the bass vibrations against sides of your skull during playback. "Head-shaking bass" can be surprisingly effective at making one feel that the bass is in the surrounding atmosphere.
Edits: 07/31/14
There never will be that many binaural recordings as they have to be made using an artificial head (see linky) which is fine for natural sounds including unamplified instruments recorded in one take but not much else.
Since binaural recordings are only really practical for live recordings, Would it be possible to take the original studio recordings and remix them trying to optimize headphone playback?
I don't know if this has been done but my gut feel is that the sound stage would be greatly improved.
Brendan
Possible? I'm sure.
Feasible? If consumers demand it.
Well, we are all hopeful that binaural technology and other esoteric recording techniques will continue to improve and develop over time, and that the limitations of the present will gradually be overcome. Be sure to read John La Grou's "Audio Engineering - The Next 40 Years" when you get the chance.
Maybe I'm kind of lucky in that I like listening to "natural sounds" and unamplified music!
I do not believe most would agree with that "catastrophe" statement. To the contrary, it is my experience that most adamantly disagree with that statement, some venomously.
That alone is perhaps the biggest reason why any advancements require a stethescope. Since most lack any training in analytical listening, most think they've already arrived becaue they know how to plug their components into the wall and therefore, there's nothing else to discover or buy.
In the past few months alone I've had encounters with 4 audiophiles, all of which couldn't punch their way out of a musical bag if their lives depended on it, even though they've been in this hobby for decades. And 3 of the 4 I know at least a little bit and expected far better. Yet, their other friends think they really know what they're talking about.
One even went so far as to say, "now that you've pointed out some things to listen for, I'll know what to look for." But what I pointed out was basic 101 stuff that I just assumed anybody with half a musical brain in this hobby would already know. I gave up because it was obvious he was content with not hearing any differences. And those audible differences were so night and day, I would almost expect a 5 year old to successfully discern.
Bottom line is much of the industry talks a real good game about performance all the day long, but in the end many wouldn't recognize real musicality if it slapped 'em in the face.
That goes for some-to-many reviewers too.
IMO, this lack of properly-trained hearing is by far the biggest obstacle for this industry to overcome and if I had to point to one thing that is causing the ever-so-slow death of the industry, it is that. And I'm certainly not tooting my own horm because I know some who can hear far better than me.
I know of just *one guy* who matches the type you describe, but that is worse than it sounds. In the small city that I live in, a guy I'll call "Barry Bull" is the only person (beside myself) that I've met who considers himself to be an "audiophile".I feel lonelier hanging out with him than I do when I'm alone because he's such a pompous, bloated egotist. He knows about, has owned, and has auditioned all kinds of high-end gear (of course!) and he loves to remind me of that any chance he gets (of course!).
That said, the guy literally cannot hear his way out of a paper bag. He's an amateur musician who, long ago, blew out his hearing capabilities working in amplified gigs. His hearing might be shot to hell, BUT HIS WILL PERSISTS. He likes to wear the badge, but I don't need no stinkin' badge...
What really motivates him in the practice of our beloved hobby, I've discovered, is not so much the love of hifi/music as the pursuit of audiophile status. In other words, he's a "gearhead".
How sad.
Edits: 07/30/14 07/30/14 07/30/14
Yes, and the problem goes all the way to the top. Don't get me wrong, there certainly is a small percentage who fully comprehend the deficiencies of a playback system, having well-trained ears, etc. But again, it seems to be a very small percentage.
I suspect that's a primary reason why so many live or die by measurements. Because without reading and comparing the specs they haven't a clue what else to measure while also providing them a means to engage others and at least appear intelligent.
Aside from blowing your own crumpet (sorry trumpet) what do your posts actually provide to move this discussion forward?
By your own token, as much as one can say that people who rely on measurements do it because they can't hear properly, people who tout hearing do it because they can't measure properly.
This binary "logic" you use is quite limited and off the mark.
Sound reproduction is a science as well as an art. To deny either is false.
"By your own token, as much as one can say that people who rely on measurements do it because they can't hear properly, people who tout hearing do it because they can't measure properly."
Perfectly put!
Hearing (if things go well) yields sensation, excitation and hopefully satisfaction.
Measuring (if things go well) yields quantization, comprehension and hopefully causation.
Rick
Are you talking about what is sometimes called "critical listening"? What is the best way to train our ears?
Not necessarily critical listening as I perceive the problem to be more basic than that.
For example, if a dog cannot distinguish its master's voice from all the other voices I wouldn't say criticl or analytical listening is the answer. First the dog has to somehow be convinced that there are distictions between voices.
... the real problem is a sort of inattentiveness? Apathetic attitudes? A lack of passion while listening? Lazy ears? Lazy brains?
Please expound further...
Le mieux est souvent l'ennemi du bien.
For digital, anyway, the catastrophe is not on the recording end, it's on the playback end. End of story. Gross noise and distortion are audible and measurable. It's just that nobody measures it or hears it, apparently.
Geoff is one of the best speculators I've ever come across. To the naive, of which I was, he has a tremendous ability to sound as though he speaks from first-hand experience.
Geoff knows all! After all he "was" an "aerospace engineer". Hes also "done work for NASA" LOL!!!!! Just ask him, hes done it all. What I can't figure out is, being as smart as he is he doesn't have the ability to post product photos in the correct orientation on his own site. That should make alarms go off for anyone looking at the crap he sells.
He a fraud plain and simple.
How's my favorite pinhead doin'?
Edits: 07/31/14
Thanks for making my day. You used to be naive. Lol
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