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In Reply to: RE: Video: The Distortion of Sound... posted by Barabajagal on July 20, 2014 at 09:24:27
If you believe in "perfect sound, forever" then there is simply no point in arguing with you.
I have done lots of downsamplings from hi-res to 44/16 and in most cases there is a noticeable degradation in sound in one form or another, depending on how this is done (the specific anti-alias filter chosen). This is often the case when the original (e.g. 88/24) comes from a digitization of a cassette tape master. (These are direct copies of an original R-R master.)
Most first rate mastering engineers who work with acoustic music can easily hear differences between various digital formats. Here's how you tell whether these people are BSing or not: you listen to their recordings. If they are uniformly good then the chances are excellent that they do not subscribe to the 44/16 dogma. If they accept that 44/16 is good enough they are on a path of $$$ and not sonic excellence and it shows in their products.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Follow Ups:
If you believe in "perfect sound, forever" then there is simply no point in arguing with you.
Hey, I just look at the evidence beyond hand-waving and empty claims. If hand-waving and empty claims are good enough for you, fine.
Most first rate mastering engineers who work with acoustic music can easily hear differences between various digital formats.
Name one who has actually demonstrated such abilities, i.e. without foreknowledge of what they're listening to. And here I'm referring to 16/44 vs. higher resolution formats, not MP3 and the like.
"Hey, I just look at the evidence beyond hand-waving and empty claims. If hand-waving and empty claims are good enough for you, fine."
Hand-waving and empty claims are definitely not good enough for me. I go on what I hear.
I do not need to convince anyone what I hear or don't hear. I rely on my own mind and my own senses, not authority figures from some BS organization. I know that 2 + 2 = 4 because I've checked and proven it for myself, not because of some grade school teacher. Ditto the publications of the Audio Engineering Society.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Hand-waving and empty claims are definitely not good enough for me. I go on what I hear.
But our subjective perception of hearing is embarrassingly unreliable and no amount of ego and vanity or willpower can overcome that. So if that's what you're relying on, you may just as we'll be relying on hand-waving and empty claims because you're in denial of the very real limitations of our own humanity.
Any competent mastering engineer has learned to overcome his biases. If he hadn't he wouldn't be able to tell what he is putting out and hence would be unable to deliver consistent quality product. Part of the training is to learn how easily one's hearing can be fooled and then learn how to go beyond this. These people make dozens of decisions every working day of the form: "Does this matter?" "Is this an improvement?" "Should I change X and if so how much?" Part of their art is understanding the limitation of their tools (which includes their own hearing) and using them effectively. The same applies to some extent with audiophiles, but if we don't get to hear their system we have no way of knowing whether they know what they are doing or not. In general, my experience with audiophile friends are that those with a subjective approach have much better sounding systems than those who follow a purely objective approach.
You should confine your remarks to your own lack of abilities and not extend a belief in your own limitations to others. You have no basis for such beliefs other than your own foolishness. People with beliefs like yours are one of the reasons for the sorry state of recorded music these days.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Any competent mastering engineer has learned to overcome his biases.
Bullshit. That's just ego and vanity talking. You can't overcome what's in your subconscious mind.
When someone can actually deonstrate their claimed abilities, I'll listen. Until then this is just more of the same hand-waving and empty claims we've been hearing for the past 30 years.
A few posts back, Barabajagal said: "Yet I'm not aware of anyone who has been able to demonstrate that they can reliably tell the difference between 16/44 and any higher resolution that you care to name."
Fair enough. I agree with you as far as that goes. However, from what little info I can find about The Audio Guild, it appears you sell speaker cables and interconnects. Have you been able to demonstrate that people can reliably tell the difference between your products and properly made but generic speaker cables and interconnects? I'd be very interested in seeing such a demonstration.
JE
A few posts back, Barabajagal said: "Yet I'm not aware of anyone who has been able to demonstrate that they can reliably tell the difference between 16/44 and any higher resolution that you care to name."
Fair enough. I agree with you as far as that goes. However, from what little info I can find about The Audio Guild, it appears you sell speaker cables and interconnects. Have you been able to demonstrate that people can reliably tell the difference between your products and properly made but generic speaker cables and interconnects?
No, we haven't. But neither do we make any claims as to actual audible differences.
I'm one of among a relative few people I would call a "true subjectivist." I go by my own subjective experience, regardless of what my account for it (i.e. whether it be due to actual audibility or just in my head due to subjective biases). It doesn't matter to me because at the end of the day, the only reason I listen to reproduced music is for my own subjective pleasure and enjoyment.
I call myself a true subjectivist because I never attempt to pass off my subjective experience as anything more than that. Unlike others who would call themselves subjectivists, but go on to insist that their subjective experiences are some unerring reflection of an objective reality. In other words, they operate from the premise that if they subjectively perceive some difference, then it MUST be due to an actual audible difference. Mr. Lauck above is a good example of this.
I don't operate from such a premise because I know all too well how unreliable our subjective perceptions can be. And my ego isn't so overblown that my self-esteem is threatened by that fact. I don't deny and run away from my own humanity, I embrace it.
The people who cannot I do not consider to be true subjectivists. Their making objective claims without any objective evidence, I refer to them as "pseudo objectivists."
So that's the perspective I am coming from with respect to my business.
"In other words, they operate from the premise that if they subjectively perceive some difference, then it MUST be due to an actual audible difference. Mr. Lauck above is a good example of this."
Whatever gave you the impression that I believe this? I'm not sure whether you are a fool or a troll trying to provoke controversy. In light of your post count, I suspect the latter.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Whatever gave you the impression that I believe this?
Because I've not seen you offer up anything else. And your truly laughable claim that mastering engineers are able to seize full control over their subconscious minds and rid themselves of all subjective biases as if they were Jedi knights or something.
I'm not sure whether you are a fool or a troll trying to provoke controversy. In light of your post count, I suspect the latter.
I had been a member here for over 14 years and with thousands of posts before I deleted my account earlier this year. I started this account recently because I wanted to defend a friend of mine who posts here.
Will you guys PLEASE get over yourselves and your positions.
Either of you, PLEASE, get on with a productive conversation!
:)
Well, you can't have a rational discussion with irrational people so I don't see much hope of a productive conversation. So I'll just bow out.
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