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In Reply to: RE: Is it all simple as that ? posted by beppe61 on June 26, 2014 at 23:12:48
The guy has some useful things to say. However, as is often the case with "demo/promo experiments", there are multiple flaws in both the demo and the narrative. For example:At about 2:50, the statement regarding "sounds below the noise level" being inaudible, is wrong. We, and other animals, can easily hear specific sounds which are well below the ambient noise level, because they stand out from the noise. One of the reasons they stand out is because we are listening for them. Another is because they're not part of the noise. Both of these are well-documented in the field of psychoacoustics.
A second issue is the time taken to change equipment. Only VERY experienced and dedicated listeners can maintain a sufficient mental memory of the first sound for more than 30 seconds or maybe a minute with regard to comparing it to the second sound sometime later.
One of the problems with these sorts of things is that the listener/attendee/Internet reader needs to have a sufficient knowledge of the topic in order to separate the hype, half-truths and inaccurate info from the solid information.
:)
Edits: 06/27/14Follow Ups:
Hi and yes i agree
The brain has the ability to filter noise
Like the people who live close to a railway ... they sleep normally after a while because the brain filters the noise
Very complex matter ... but also fascinating of course
Kind regards,
bg
It is not about filtration per se. Noise is uncorrelated with the signal but correlated sounds below the noise floor can be "locked" in on by our ear/brain and detected...that is as long as the noise floor is truly noise. A good example is hearing soft sounds that have been recorded to analog tape. In many cases the tape hiss, which is truly noise, can be louder but you still hear the soft sounds clearly.
The problem with many amps, particularly those with a lot of negative feedback, is that they produce a false "noise" floor that is in actuality correlated with the music signal. This was first pointed out by Norman Crowhearst in the 1950s. THen real sounds can get lost because now the "noise" floor is really signal correlated as well. This has a lot of detrimental effects on the realism of the reproduced music.
Hi and thanks again for trying to explain to me
This is difficult ... but very interesting of course
The human perception is a very complex matter
But i want to say a last think ,,, with turntable everything sounds from acceptable to very good to me
With digital is a nightmare ... i am sure that digital noise intrudes in the sound in a very nasty way, when present of course
The music ends and it is only noises ...
Thanks again
Kind regards,
bg
Yup, and well-said.
I might add, with regard to Beppe's original point, while the goal of keeping noise and distortion as low as possible is certainly a given, that we're not very sensitive to some types of distortion. We can readily tolerate and not even notice several percent harmonic distortion, depending on WHICH harmonics they are. Second harmonic distortion can easily go to several percent and we don't notice it. But we'd all cringe and cover our ears if it were seventh harmonic distortion! So, the concept of "THD" (Total Harmonic Distortion) is fundamentally flawed as a measure of sound quality. Tying this to the original point, designers often design for the lowest typically published and measured specs, which isn't necessarily what should be done. Since every product has a sales price point, things like THD and IM distortion are often minimized, at the expense of more audible distortions or the audibility of the distortion spectral characteristics.
And, so, "no" - it isn't that simple.
:)
Do you suggest looking for a home next to railway tracks to improve the experience of listening to recorded music?
Hi and actually i would not suggest that
Maybe living in a home next to railway tracks could make me less critical about the experience of listening to recorded music
Seriously when the source is right it is a very good start, especially with digital
And this does not mean expensive
I have found some cd players with a musical sound in very cheap systems
I remember one of those mid size one brand Technics system
The sound from a Bob Marley cd made me almost dance in the used hifi shop.
I did not buy it, wrongly, because it has connections made with a flat cable
But that was a mistake ... real mistake.
Now i am here playing with computers and interfaces ... a nightmare
Kind regards,
bg
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