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Why would I or any one want to bi-wire your speakers from
a single amp. I have heard this will help the sound. Why?
MY PSB-gold i's have the ability.
Would you do it.
I have my Dunlavy SC-IV's bi wired with 2 separate runs of Harmonic Technology Pro 9 speaker cable. It doesn't make a huge difference, but seems to add some meat (fullness) to the midrange and bass.Suzy
Are they soldered or crimped?
Neither. There are 2 sets of binding posts on both the amp (Plinius SA 100) and the speakers.Suzy
Suzy, it's a beautiful day and that was damn funny!
Do you remember Arnold on Happy Days.
Do remember his Laugh? Your BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA reminded me of it.
Good one.Van
I didn't understand his question. Why would he ask if my speaker wires are soldered or crimped? I would think the ends are soldered on if that is the question. I didn't make the wire. Sorry for being so stupid.Suzy
I thought you were joking. I don't understand all this concern about solder when there are a zillion solder joints in his preamp and power amplifier and crossover.
No, really!
There are many that wont use solder on their speaker wires.
As I said I wanted to know how everyone felt about it.
I will more than likely add solder to the spade connector
because the copper will begin to tarnish and degrade the
mechanical connection of the crimp.Thanks for your input Suzy and Rich. Sorry If I was confusing
but it was pretty funny, He he he.Van
I have an audiophile friend who makes his own cables and claims he can hear a difference depending on the kind of solder he uses on the ends.
This is the same guy who had a midrange/bass driver blown out on his B&W's one day when I stopped to listen to his stereo and didn't even notice the farting noise coming out of his speakers untill I pointed it out to him.Suzy
Same thing happened to me. I stopped by an acquaintance's place for some tips and to hear his gear - he had more electronics than an average sized dealer, and a fancy switching system. Both his midrange drivers were blown, and I had a hard time deciding if and how to tell him. I didn't say anything, but subtly tried to get him to see it for himself. No luck. Some people enjoy the tech, and the hearing is secondary.
You hit that one *Spot On*. Gearheads with Tin ears.
I have many tools in addition to Snap-ON. Craftsman , Matco, Diamond
ECT.ECT.The butane kit I have is the Ultra-Torch made by
the Master Appliace company.There is a tool for every job.
One of my favorites is the Leatherman [good for fishing too].
Some have called me a tool... I always thought of myself as a nut.Later
Van
Geez Van, I have a Leatherman too. Some people would say "guys and their tools, it's all they think about". I never leave home without mine. Regards.
Yes, I'm always playing with my tool.
ER um I meen I um,,,oh nevermind.Sorry about putting the post under "HA HA"
It was late and I was pooped.I have a theory about men that I tell my wife.
Guys like watches, tools, knifes, guns, Cars, computers and stereos. Not necessarily in that order.
I tell her if she needs to get me anything for a birth day [19th of this month] to stick to these catagories and she will be safe.But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I get socks.
Yup, those are the categories of presents I usually get from girlfriends (not cars or stereos, but related items). I guess it's universal. However, when you're married, they probably get you stuff that you need, rather than what you want. BTW, we have the same birthday, and I'm thinking some cables might be nice.
Im pushing for a Phono pre-amp myself.
I want to get back into analog.Your B-Day is 6/19 too? what year.
For me it was in '58,yea I'm an old fart.When My wife got me socks I was hoping for tube socks for my Melos.
But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Van
Ok.
For the moment lets assume I am going to Bi-wire my system.
You all have touched base with what I will expect.The worse case scenario will be to lessen the the resistance
between the amp and the speakers [this is still a good thing].
I have 8 gage speaker wire, where is the point of no return.I will plan to use spades but should I solder or just crimp.
If I solder I will use silver solder and only the smallest
amount of solder tho make a good bond.Being an avionics thechnician my soldering skills are excellent
in the extreme.
I have heard arguments supporting both types of terminationsWhat do you think
Van
don't even consider crimping.
Sorry... That message number is not valid.
No, its not a question of being lazy or not.
I am very able to do the solder job.
I could most likely solder better than 99% of the the people here
on the Alylum.
I'm an Avionics Thechnician and spend a great deal of time removing and installing 40 and 50 pin LS I.C.'s, some are surface mount ranging
in size from 2 or 3 square inches or smaller to about 1/4".
in Transponers,Radio Altimeters, DME's, NAV's,Comm's Radars and Auto Pilots.Its the sound quality I'm after.
I appreciate yout input but why are you so angry?
As far as Stupid Americans.....America does have its problems
but I would not want to live any other place.
America also has the Largest economy on the planet, well beyond $40 Trillion. So you may want to soften your statement a little.
Have a good weekendVan
Many people feel that solder kills the sound a little.
Why do you support solder? Give me a reason.
Why do you not support Crimping? Give me a reasonI am ignorant about this and I would like know.
But I do need a reason.Van
Solder is not really a brilliant conductor, but, on the other hand, there's plenty of surface area in the join and the amount of solder the signal has to pass through is pretty small.
Crimping gives a better join if its done well (two matching metals in direct contact, no damned old solder in the path) but the joint is subject to oxidising over time (= degraded sound).
Solution, first crimp it, for the quality of the join, then solder it to keep the oxygen out.
Andrew.
Yeah. Do both. Or crimp first, try it, then add the solder, and see if you hear a difference. The only real reason people are against soldering is it takes skill and experience to do it properly, and a bad amateur job is much worse than crimping (high resistance, at worst maybe even a semiconducting effect). As you know, when done correctly with the proper materials and at the proper temperature a chemical bond should be formed between the soldered materials. This is good. But trickier with copper wire, gold connectors, and silver solder, say. As usual, the best connector is no connector, but this is inconvenient and requires renewing the ends of your cables every so often (unless perhaps they're gold or silver wire) because of oxidation. Personally, I find the large connectors too hard to solder well, and they look ugly after my attempts, so I just crimp them. You probably have much better soldering equipment at work, so ...
Next time you try to solder get some flux, Liquid is best.
Also get a hot air gun, heat shrink [ red and black] and a 60 watt soldering pincil.Trim the wire and heat shrink. Slide the heat shrink on the wire.
Install the wire in the connector [spade in my case]
Crimp the connector.Use the heat gun to heat up the connectors crimped area but don't melt the insulation on the cable.
Apply the flux and then solder to the crimped area and the solder should flow evenly.
The important thing to remember is to heat up the area with the
heat gun first because the area is so large and acts as a heat sink.Solder melts at 600 Deg. F and a 700 deg solderng tip will do well.
Make sure it is not a small sharp tip. The soldering tip needs to be
a screw driver style of tip [ flat slot type ] for this application.The solder should look shiny and the contour of the conductors should show through [ if not you used to much solder].
Practice a few times, you will get good at it after a while.Van
Hot air gun pre-heating - good idea, never heard of this method before. My soldering equipment is really only for electronics, not "electrical". I have lots of small various shaped tips for 600 - 800F, but none large, and my temp. cont. iron is low wattage. Totally inadequate to do an audio cable job properly by itself. But I know this, so cut off all my soldered connectors eventually because I know the job was sh**. I settled for a crimp only as a severe compromise IMO. I have heard so much praise for modern liquid fluxes that I really must try some. You must understand that I was brought up in the times when any flux was anathema to electronic soldering.
I have a butane soldering iron the is wonerful.
It can be used as a torch, heat gun for heat shrink and has many different tips avalable. There are many types out there for $100.
I recomend you get one. They are very portable too.
If you dont have a basic tool kit I would recomend one as well.
I have Snap-on tools but you can get what you need at Sears
and electronics wharehouses.Good luck my friend
Van
Hi Van,
Yeah, I have a butane Weller Pyropen Jr. I must admit to lack of skill with it for burning (I mean soldering) things. I use it for the car audio stuff, where I'm not quite so picky and it's convenient. It takes some practice and finesse for sure. It's also great in winter for unfreezing locks here in Canada. And yeah, Snap-On is pretty much the best for precision and clean mechanicals, like aircraft or electronics or even meticulously maintained cars, but can be a problem for items that suffer corrosion and paint, like I see in my job. There the "slop" of lesser quality (but not bad) stuff like Sears Craftsman tools (what I do use, except for German/Swiss/Swedish electronics tools) is actually a benefit. I often have had to undo bolts that the "Snap-On Boys" couldn't get a socket/wrench on. Regards.
Most likely what I will do.
ThanksVan
it's about listening. Listen to both and you'll know why you should solder.
you should be able to borrow another run of your cable.
It would sound different. Better? maybe, maybe not.When the Loudspeaker was designed, it was (in most cases)designed around a single run, and then the crossover network does the balancing.
The advantage of dual runs with a single amplifier would change the sound due to the resistance of the wire before the crossover. You would have ultimately more conductor running.
I personally would have to hear the differences.
One thing I wonder, if their is a crossover disconnect so you could bi-amplify the speakers with an electronic (active) network. If their is no way to disconnect the internal crossover, Bi-Amping would serve only the purpose of more dynamics, because of crossover loss being bypassed.
Hypothetically speaking, Bi-Wiring with the internal crossover and one amplifier really serves little purpose.
RBP
RBP,Like Rich says, it CAN make a difference. I know, since I've done the A/B comparo routine, sev, times. First was on DCM TimeWindow 1As. I rewired the XO for bi-wire (sep. the LP and HP sections and added 2 sets of posts). Then made up bi-wire cables, jumpers and two DP/DT switches. Then took turns w/ sons and friends, switching back & forth between BW & jumpers. The diff. in sound was unmisteakable. Bi-wire was MUCH more open, wider staging, less spitty, top to bottom a big improvement. Later did the same experiment w/ my AP Audettes. Again, the diff in sound was immediate and unmisteakable, and that was w/ a single amp system. I now run bi-amped and would not have a system w/o bi-wire. Just my 2 cents worth.
PS
Less Spitty?
I don't understandI get the rest of it, You like the sound
Van
Biwiring is mandatory with my Martin Logan reQuests and Apogee Divas (as it also was with my Apogee Calipers). The effects are somewhat more subtle with my Dunlavy SC-IVs, but still worthwhile, IMO.
hello!
i personally tried bi-wiring and bi-amlifying with many different loudspeakers. (bi-amp. and bi-wire have nothing in common.) during my experimentations i allways had in mind that selling double cable is quiet an interesting perspective for hi-fi dealers... even if i don't supect them All to be completely cynical!
back to our point, i asked myself if the principal benefit of bi-wiring wasn't the supression of the little "gold plated" pieces of metal between the loudspeaker connections, they are often sounding very poorly. i just replaced them by a little piece of my good wires and it sounded as good as bi-wiring!!!
if you feel more adventurous as i sometimes do, you'll even try to connect a wire on the upper part and the other one... on the other side...
costless with very limited risks...
good luck,
pepys
on Divas or reQuests. They need to be biwired or biamped...period. I might try that on my Dunlavys though.
well i don't know this particular loudspeaker, but all loudspeakers enclosed in a single cabinet (2 for a pair indeed) and offering the possibility of bi-wire or bi-amp. are externally bridged for a normal use: single wire or amplification...
the suppression of this bridge is imo the best and only argument in favor of bi-wiring!!! (if you exept the exellent argument of selling double cable!)
kindest regards, pepys
but are we still in the good asylum? (gasp!)
and what would be the reactions to this conversation in the cable division? does "cable" mean they could eventually be more dangerous than others?
i'll go there and tell them i use an ironing power cord cost 3$ for my pre-amp. and observe reactions... (scientifically)
are you implying that reQuests wont work if not biwired? if so, not true. you can biwire, biamp, go full range. you can go swimming, play tennis, go boating (if you buy tampax) that used to be implied on the tampax pkg...!
my friend has a pair and biwiring is the only option he hasnt tried. hes a snubnose that doesnt believe in that even though he never tried it. he has enuf wire, just stubborn. i personally have never been demonstrated the difference so i have an open mind about it. you can explain and that would be nice but i still need to HEAR it. in my ignrorance, i would recommend someone try it on an experimental basis but not because i know anything about it.
.........regards.........tr
rather unexceptional without biwiring.
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