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What is the bear minimum performance-to-price ratio, point of diminishing returns, on a starter system so that a user definitely will hear a difference?
$50 audio player> $25 Dac> $15 cables> $200 active speakers?
Of course we assume when they can afford it they will upgrade the whole chain to near pro quality, from pre-amps, in and out of the converters, into top quality monitors. But what will it take to absolutely hear a difference on a shoe string?
Follow Ups:
Sure, for $300 you could start out using your computer as a source with some cheap and tiny active speakers on a shelf in a small room. The next most significant upgrade would be to sell those tiny speakers and buy some bigger/better active speakers for $300 more. If it was ME and my starting budget was only $300, I would definitely go for headphones. My introduction to "hifi" started about 15 years ago when I bought a pair of Grado SR60 headphones, an Onkyo Integra preamp w/headphone jack, and a used Onkyo CD changer - for a grand total of about $500. Personally, I would not bother with a loudspeaker setup unless I was ready to spend at least $1000.
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
Edits: 06/30/12
One speaker - stereo sound.
Alternative:
Audiosource Amp100 ($100) - handles two sources
Sony SSF-5000 Floor Standing 3-way Speaker (Pair) ($150)
Add cheap wire and a CD or DVD player. Under $300!
The Sony's actually do all the things you would like a speaker to do - for the price -- and then some.
Three most important things in Audio reproduction: Keep the noise levels low, the power high and the room diffuse.
.
New driver? I'd get a Blaupunkt, but I'd be sure to get a car with low wind noise to go along with it. Add $150 for the car and you should be able to make out pretty well.
You could look at a compact all in one system from Denon, Onkyo or Yamaha which go for around $300. Later could replace the speakers with a PSB Alpha.
Cheers
Bill
.......
$300 is about what most people just starting out ask me about, and after verifying they can't/won't spend more, my answer is always the same.
Buy USED! Vintage used, at that. An old NAD receiver or integrated for around $100, then a pair of the best sounding speakers you can find for $100-150(usually PSB, or Paradigm - often with stands), spend what's left on source (an iPod, CD player, or their computer). I wouldn't spend anything extra on wire or interconnects. A sub can be added latter if the speakers are a little small. Often, I've helped friends find "systems" under $500 that are centered around a pair of really nice speakers... DCMs, are remarkably inexpensive, easy to drive, and very forgiving of less expensive electronics. Early Vandersteen 2s, older Snells & Thiels are all often available for just a couple (maybe three) hundred, Magnepan SMGs are another possability - I bought my SMGas for $175!
The deals are out there, but under $500, used is the only way to get real "bang for the buck".
Thanks Frommerstop, vintage and used for sure will help on a shoestring. Good to know that $300.00 is a realistic entry price.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
Compared to what?
Not having any system?
An Ipod and stock earbuds?
A budget PC sound system?
Good point jsm71! I can't control the size of this Pic, but just about any modern dac will be a computer audio upgrade when we are starting with nothing, earbuds, or a budget PC.
In general the performance of the converter should be better overall regardless of the source material, given the improvements in jitter reduction and power supply filtering that many have.
Though, it truth, this might be detrimental to the listening experience for lossy sources such as Pandora, Youtube, and Hulu as the higher quality output from the HD might highlight the deficiencies and make them more apparent.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I'm not sure their love for all things cheap is that strong, to tolerate someone who consistently acts like an imbecile.
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I new here, so I'm inclined to ask, is this normal banter for this forum, or is there a particular feud I've stumbled across?
I was under the impression this was an open forum for audio discussion, and aside from some large, but innocuous, pictures the OP asked reasonable questions, and responded in the audio specific.
...in short, lighten up!
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Sorry, I didn't know of his "history", I was just taking the posts at face value.
"Stumbled across" seems disingenuous. Before your concerns can be addressed your position is a terse, "...in short, lighten up!". If you don't have a hidden agenda, what's up with that?
No "hidden agenda", I just thought it sounded a bit harsh, but if that's the way things are here, I'll tread more lightly from now on.
Eggshells noted.
"No "hidden agenda"
Good
"I just thought it sounded a bit harsh"
OK
"but if that's the way things are here"
Unfair
"I'll tread more lightly from now on.
Eggshells noted."
Just dismount the high and mighty you rode in on.
After that retort, I say again,
lighten up... it's only a chat room about audio after all - we're not talking politics or religion, can't we get along without bashing. I understand I didn't know everyone's history here, so maybe I shouldn't have chimed in, but from what I saw on this one thread, it seemed unfair. I waited through several barbs before making a comment, and I don't think saying "lighten up" is particularly harsh, or even judgmental. I'm surprised how quickly tempers seem to flair around this site.
Not everyone in these parts is so... touchy.
You happened upon someone whose favorite pastime around here seems to be to comment on other poster's posts.
Such is life...
There's a lot more to this place than that, and much useful commentary on audio gear and music
abounds in the specific fora. Have fun reading, exploring and contributing to AA!
"One this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" - Michael McClure
Thanks for that, I suppose these places are all the more interesting for their diversity.
I am looking forward to spending time on this site.
Sorry
I'll start trying to dial that back and stop
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Thanks! You help the world go 'round.
Thanks, will check
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
You don't realize that he was being a dick to you, do you?
Thanks for your post, and contribution.Actually, - it was thoughtful, - and heartfelt suggestion based on his posts, and his history. In this case, given some of what he's posted toward me, and others, plus other warnings: my post was quite charitable.
And all of that being said, his posts reflect the irritation inherent in a teenage troll.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/29/12
DTA-100a Class-T Digital Amplifier 50 WPC $90
Pioneer speakers SP-BS21-LR $100
And whatever front end you want to feed these for $100.
navman
Good start
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
.
I can see the powered speakers, but it is hard to imagine the masses giving up the ability to random search their whole librarys, in favor of 8-track or compact disc.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
H/K 730 receiver $50 used (includes FM tuner)
Philips CDC-935 CD player, $50 used (and upgradeable)
Napa Acoustic Mistal NA-208S speakers, $200 (heard at THE Show..... Superlative for the $$$)
$200 for the pair,and I thought NAPA was an auto parts store!!
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
Good question!I have been very pleased with my current minimal cost setup:
Speakers - Polk R300 ($49.95 each on sale at Fry's, or $160 per pair everyday price at Walmart) placed about 10 inches from the rear wall these sound very good (really!)
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Polk-Audio-R300-Floorstanding-Tower-Speaker-Priced-as-a-pair/20449373
Amplifier - NuForce Icon Amp ($189), 24 Watts per channel. Plenty of power for the 90 dB efficient R300s.
http://www.nuforce.com/hp/products/iconamp/index.php
Run any line-level analog input into the amp (CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player, Ipod line out, or DAC output). I added a Schiit Bifrost DAC ($350) but before this I was using the analog output of our Sony TV and the sound was still very nice. The TV streams Pandora, Rhapsody, etc over the internet, or I can play CD's using the Blu-Ray player attached to the TV.
The amp and speakers are a very musical combination.
Edits: 06/28/12
Did anyone else hear a difference when you upgraded the Dac?
"Did anyone else hear a difference when you upgraded the Dac?"
The respondent had already said, "I added a Shiit Bifrost DAC ($350) but before this I was using the analog output of our Sony TV and the sound was still very nice."
You don't understand the topic or responses?
The respondent said, "I was using the analog output of our Sony TV and the sound was still very nice."
He made no mention if the dac was any better, or if anyone else thought the dac was any better. Did anyone else hear a change when he added the dac to his very nice sounding system?
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
I think if we're talking about a working system for $300, the lion's share of the investment needs to be on speakers, with just enough spared for necessary amplification. If you have ANY digital source now, I'd stick with that. An upgraded DAC can always come latter, but if you don't have good enough speakers (and an amp capable of properly driving them), you'll never hear the improvement in the source anyway.
BTW, although I don't think powered speakers are generally a good option in your price range, there is a pair of powered AudioPro speakers listed on ebay right now for $150 (+$100 shipping, unless you're in Washington area), that are a STEAL! If you're not familiar with AudioPro, they are a Swedish brand, known for their (very good)powered subs... the speakers on ebay are basically their sub with a two way speaker added in. Result is a near full range speaker (-3db is around 30hz, if memory serves).
...and, no I don't have anything to do with the listing, but I've heard them before, and they are quite nice. I'd been toying with picking them up myself, but until I pick up a new contract, I can't afford to throw money out for speakers that would end up sitting with all the others in my basement!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200782867707?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Edits: 06/28/12
I understand the concept, Vintage speakers with 200 watts per channel. All we would need out of a computer is a Dac and cables which can be upgraded as funds become available through time..
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
What's wrong - can't type without pictures?
It only takes half a brain to read.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
I don't see how it is any of your business, you have your signature and I have mine.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
nt
Well they ARE powered (bi-amped, as a matter of fact, and I was suggesting them mostly if he lived close enough to pick them up, thus only $150. Though, I think he could do worse than springing all $250 on them, since he would only need to add a source... even an ipod would do for a start.
"Though, I think he could do worse than springing all $250 on them, since he would only need to add a source... even an ipod would do for a start."
Yeah, right. Maybe you could paste a couple of his clever images of iPODs on each speaker until his luck changes.
Not to split hairs, but I did just check on ebay, and found several ipod nanos available for under $50 including shipping... so, yes he could make such a system within budget.
As I said, generally I wouldn't recommend a powered speaker for such an inexpensive system, but the OP first mentioned that option, and I happened to know of this speaker, so I passed the suggestion along. I don't think it's any less practical than most of the other ideas posted here, though I'll admit it's an unorthodox way to go. I tend to think of active speakers as a bit of a double edged sword, though they CAN use amplifiers optimized to the drivers, and they do take the hassle out of matching speakers/amps... often they are simply an amp hung on the back of a speaker, with no real advantage above convenience. It's been years since I listened to these AudioPros, but my recollection is that they "did active speakers right". I've also owned a couple AudioPro subs over the years, and was always impressed by their quality. They employ a dual driver system in an isobaric configuration that works well... similar the my Revox Agora Bs - ironically the only active speakers I've ever owned, and one of my long time favorites.
"I don't think it's any less practical than most of the other ideas posted here, though I'll admit it's an unorthodox way to go."
No problem. Possibilities are endless when working with a blank canvas.
Your trolling has no boundary.
A second opinion who does not have a conflict of interest in the result. An ipod carrying girl friend who cares nothing about sound reproduction perhaps.
~~~
The driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
"An ipod carrying girl friend who cares nothing about sound reproduction perhaps."
Now, you're trolling for compatible dates?
*
nt
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