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Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices

72.82.19.24

Greetings.

An lifelong audiophile and music lover who teaches at a liberal arts college is trying to put together a recorded-music listening room so students can hear great music on something other than earbuds.

The listening room will have LP playback.

The room is being designed by an architect, with acoustical consultation from Rives Audio.

The room is to be about 20 x 35 feet with a ceiling height of about 10 feet. Obviously, these dimensions will be fine-tuned.

The listeners will sit in two or three rows of chairs. The room should accommodate at least 15 to 18 listeners.

The project manager loves the sound of the big mbls. However, these may not be practical or affordable. So, he asked my advice on speaker choices. NB, he is not interested in panel speakers of any kind.

Here is my short list, pretty much in order of preference. NB also, I took practicalities and cost into account.

I welcome constructive criticism. Or helpful suggestions.

Duntech Sovereign 2001

Still being made. Still an industry standard. Not crazy money. Great bass with sealed-enclosure virtues. Room-friendly and amp-friendly. Pretty much bomb-proof. Only negative is that he would have to order new ones from Australia based on hearing older ones here, as there is no US representation.

Aerial 20T

Robust bass and sweet ribbon treble in a comparatively compact package at a comparatively sensible price. More demanding on the amp than the Duntechs. Built in the US from some foreign components, so the price has remained stable.

ATC SCM 150

Another pick probably better regarded in the pro field. A wonderful midrange driver plus a stonking huge woofer. Also available as self-powered active monitors.

Egglestonworks Savoy

The half-pint version of Bob Ludwig's Ivys; if 400 pounds each can be considered half-pint. Before the Ivys, Bob had Duntech 2001s. My iffiness is two-fold. Bob's pair's crossovers were voiced to his room and tastes, and I have heard Eggl'etc. speakers sound a bit bleached or forward in the midrange, which may or may not be still connected directly to the amplifier, outside the crossover. And, frankly the visual aesthetics are a tad weird. In "Henry Ford Model T Black."

Wilson Benesch Chimera

A truly lovely speaker that comes in last, as its bass will not be competitive with any of the above speakers, but perhaps the wonderful coherence in its mid and treble and its boffo looks will win the day.

The listening room will be within the existing library building. Therefore, huge speakers that can reproduce rock concert stage volumes are not required.

Amp, etc. selection will follow speaker selection, as it should.

Thanks in advance for helpful and reasoned comments.

Cordially,

John Marks

Follow Ups:

RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - Paul L 11:49:16 10/10/07 (1)
Go for the Duntech. You won't go wrong.

Paul Lam
P.L.C.Lam Consulting Inc.
- Thanks. - John Marks 12:10:31 10/10/07 (0)
  Hi-
  
  The 2001s are a sentimental favorite. They also are a huge bargain compared to a lot of what is out there.
  
  Problems are, all the units in the US are not current production, and getting a pair involves a leap of faith and air cargo from OZ.
  
  But I have never heard a bass alignment as good as the 2001s' sealed bass and twin twelve-inch woofers.
  
  The other side of the coin is that the Aerial 20Ts treble is just about my fave rave... .
  
  Aw, hell, let's build TWO listening rooms!
  
  JM
Vandersteen 5A. - jsm 12:19:27 10/08/07 (1)
I have heard many of the speakers mentioned in this thread. Most of them are extremely impressive. That's their problem. They are very impressive and sound like great speakers, not like great music. The Vandersteen 5As are flat to within 2 db from 20 Hz to well beyond 20Khz, yet people call them and other Vandersteen models like the 3A (just about equally flat at high frequencies) "rolled-off" or veiled. They are not. They just don't sound like a lot of top-end "hi-fi" speakers. They are extremely neutral and extremely musical, having very low distortion and high transparency. If I were putting in a music listening system for a college, I would not strive for a system that was impressive, but for one that disappeared, that made the listeners forget about the system and become totally engrossed with the music. Most of the speakers in this thread won't do thatextremely well, but could be very impressive in their effortless, large sound output. Having been at this for more than 40 years and having heard many hundreds of speakers, I have heard very few that actually sound like live, acoustical music, the kind I hear at a live concert, and the 5As are among those. They are least worth your consideration. Maybe they are better than you need, though.

Joe
- What I would have said, but of course I own them...but... - Steve Parry 16:48:29 10/08/07 (0)
  ...one reason I think they are a good choice is that they have true low bass which can be tuned. Also, they are not overly large, and the grills are set up such that there is not a great temptation to remove them. They are a durable speaker in terms of the driver types. They are however extremely revealing of equipment in front of them, and sound best, IME, with tubes. They are also heavy and sturdy on the ground, which would be nice for that application. Not to mention they are set up to be upgradeable.
  
  Steve
Can you use a subwoofer or several in this set-up? - RGA 03:25:00 10/07/07 (1)
Either way put some Audio Note AN E's in the corners and though the room is a little big should be okay. With Subwoofers handling under 20hz say from Genesis or other quality subs you can still get the rumble. Doesn't Rives make subs as well(though I may be mixing this up with another company)

Although I have not heard them you could also try Marten Designs that the Audio Federation of Colorado absolutely loves and I have no idea what room size they are designed for but they are very big. They also carry Audio Note and Kharma.

Yeah yeah AN is the weird little SET friendly box maker but you noted the pro of being easy to drive and their biggest advantage may in fact be their ease of moving around -- don't have 400 lbs to lug around. And you know there is no bigger vinyl lover than Audio Note's boss.

And you also know - if you're the John Marks of Stereophile that if you're cash strapped they have DIY for under $2k.

Audio Note aside - I would still go with a HE speaker of some sort because you have a far wider array of choice in front ends. The only disadvantage is that the students may not want to leave with such a good musical experience!
- In fact looking at the room... - RGA 03:39:55 10/07/07 (0)
  It appears very much like a good idea to have a corner loaded system -- it also opens up space...the other factor is that you don't want some gaudy looking thing - something than may actually go with the room's bookshelf decor. I suggest the AN E Sec Silver Signature which I have heard and it's bet best speaker I have heard so far.
  
  http://www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-SEC-SIGNATURE.html
  
  John I am serious -- look at the size of this room and the AN E in it -- if it can do well in this room then the one you present is a cake walk...and at least the man's room has an actual proper corner.
  - http://audiofederation.com/blog/categories/high-end-audio/audio-note/page/2/ (Open in New Window)
Sticking to the original list - Vladimir Dorta 09:53:35 10/06/07 (0)
My vote is for the ATC SCM150 ASL (the original active stand-mount), which should cost around $25,000 currently. Order the pretty simple stands locally. Reasons? should be cheaper than the current floorstanders, amplifiers included, designed for this kind of job, the superb midrange.
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - Odyno 07:30:54 10/06/07 (3)
Why not a full Aurum Acoustics system?
- Aurum Acoustics (Open in New Window)
- the link doesn't work for me. nt - Travis 18:16:37 10/06/07 (2)
  .
  Be-Bop and Mahler
  - RE: the link doesn't work for me. nt - Odyno 18:37:48 10/06/07 (1)
    www.aurumacoustics.com/
    
    Odyno
    - RE: thanks nt - Travis 07:17:55 10/07/07 (0)
      .
      Be-Bop and Mahler
VMPS RM-40s -- Award-winning, reviewer-raving, large, handsome, and *inexpensive* - clarkjohnsen 06:44:02 10/06/07 (0)
Bound for Sound:

VMPS has taken what I consider to be one of the finest speakers on the market, and made it better! The first RM40 was groundbreaking in its ability to combine imaging, bass response and dynamic capabilities into a single package that sold for $4,200 - $5,400 (depending on the options chosen). At that time, it easily outdistanced the ultra-hype speakers touted in so many magazines and cyber web places. There is a reason that many of the speakers considered the darlings of the glossy press don't show up here - they don't sound good; at least not when compared to the VMPS RM40 or, for that matter, the Gallo Reference MkIII. This latest version of the RM40 is better yet. With what was already an exceptional speaker, they have taken the next step musically. They have improved it by refining it in meaningful ways, ways that most speaker manufacturers apparently don't recognize, or a least can't duplicate. One of the best speakers in the world has just gotten better. This is a Component of Exceptional Merit.
- http://vmpsaudio.com/RM40.htm (Open in New Window)
Put the money into acoustic treatement, the room IS the speaker... - toenmaniac 06:22:13 10/06/07 (7)
Two thousand in the right room treatement buys you about twenty thousand in perceived value....
- I said: "The room is being designed by an architect, with acoustical consultation from Rives Audio." - John Marks 09:39:30 10/06/07 (6)
  What about that is unclear?
  
  JM
  - the "architect" may not consider this solution - tonemaniac 12:37:04 10/06/07 (5)
    I'm only trying to give you ,and perhaps your expensive architect, the benefit of my direct experience. I've worked with plenty of architects, I'v known some very fine ones... sometimes they don't know about a potential solution, or they haven't considered it, or they have preconceived notions about what "should" sound best... heck, i've had isomorphic experiences with doctors, known authorities who didn't know many things... just because youv've retained an architect doesn't mean you will get the best result... your statement betrays a shocking combination of arrogance, smugness, defensiveness, immaturity, and naivete... in other words you ever so richhly deserve whatever outcome you receive... what about that is unclear ? I mean, clear enough to everyone who has to endure you.... I hope they are billing you on a time and materials basis... idiot.
    - Do you know anything at all about Rives? - John Marks 14:56:22 10/06/07 (4)
      How about the fact that Rives' vice president who is the contact person for this job was a lead engineer on Led Zeppelin II, and won a Grammy for producing an Eric Bourdon record.
      
      I was responding to what I perceived as hasty reading on your part.
      
      As far as I am concerned, my stating that Rives was on the job should alert people that the acoustics were being handled as an intergral part of the design.
      
      And I don't think I need to be lectured in hyperbolic terms about the benefits of acoustical treatments for rooms that have already been built. As far as I am concerned, your $2,000/$20,000 example is quite an overstatement.
      - "(Rives VP) was a lead engineer on Led Zeppelin II, and won a Grammy for producing an Eric Bourdon record." - Richard BassNut Greene 09:38:26 10/07/07 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Do you know anything at all about Rives? posted by John Marks on October 06, 2007 at 14:56:22
        
        Mr. Smarty Pants:
        Assuming those statements about Rives' VP are facts:
        - How do they prove, or even suggest, the man is a room acoustics expert?
        You might as well have mentioned that he won a hog-calling contest when he was 15 years old!
        Based ONLY on those two facts you used to defend Rives' VP,
        I'd worry about:
        (1) Permanent hearing damage from prior music career
        (2) Likes rock music (the devil's music)
        But 'slightly' more important than giving you a hard time:
        -- Which Eric Burdon record?
        I'm a long-time fan of his work though the War era.
        .
        .
        .
        
        Richard BassNut Greene
        Subjective Audiophile 2007
        
        Edits: 10/07/07
        
        "The World is a Ghetto." (1973) - John Marks 10:08:44 10/07/07 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "(Rives VP) was a lead engineer on Led Zeppelin II, and won a Grammy for producing an Eric Bourdon record." posted by Richard BassNut Greene on October 07, 2007 at 09:38:26
        
        From Wikipedia:
        
        Christopher 'Chris' Huston (b 25 June 1943) is a leading British-born record engineer and guitarist.
        
        Huston arrived in Wallasey, near Liverpool, toward the end of World War II from an orphanage in North Wales. As a teenager he began studies at the Liverpool College of Art, where he became friends with John Lennon and, like Lennon, began copying the American R&B music imported through the city. In 1961 he joined The Undertakers, one of the leading local Merseybeat bands, as lead guitarist, shortly before Jackie Lomax joined as the group’s singer.
        
        The Undertakers released a string of singles in the early 1960s and toured widely, but had little chart success. They split up in the USA in 1965, and Huston stayed behind. Initially he toured as a member of Joey Dee and the Starliters, before linking up with The Young Rascals to start a new career as a producer and engineer.
        
        As engineer, he won a gold disc for the Rascals’ "Groovin’", and in the late 1960s engineered a string of successful and innovative albums with artists including The Who, Led Zeppelin, Todd Rundgren, Patti LaBelle and H.P. Lovecraft. He worked particularly extensively with Eric Burdon and War on their albums through the 1970s and 1980s, winning a Grammy for “The World Is A Ghetto” (1973). He also worked with James Brown, Ben E. King and many others.
        
        Huston has subsequently become a leading consultant and lecturer on acoustics, building design, recording techniques and record production, based near Nashville.
        
        [edit]
        
        JM resumes:
        
        Chris was lead guitarist of the Merseyside group The Undertakers; he was a college classmate and pal of John Lennon's. It was Chris who put the first tremolo bar on one of John Lennon's guitars.
        
        Now I will be the first to admit that putting the tremelo bar on John Lennon's guitar in and of itself does not qualify one for designing a room for critical listening to classical music LPs. However, Chris' track record in studio design and House of Worship Design and from-scratch (Rives Level 4) home listening room design puts him in my educated estimation certainly on the level of the top half dozen such resources within the US. Some others being Walters/Storyk, Artec, BBN, and Bob Hodas.
        
        Furthermore, Chris has been involved in the project since before there were any drawings of any sort. He has spent a fair amount of time on campus and understands the project goals as well as anybody does. I know Chris. He is affable and has a great sense of humor and listens to other people. I think it is a great project. Perhaps after it is built, if JA agrees, I can write it up for Stereophile.
        
        Cordially,
        
        JM
        
        Those first War LPs - musetap 12:49:54 10/07/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "The World is a Ghetto." (1973) posted by John Marks on October 07, 2007 at 10:08:44
        
        up through "Why Can't We Be Friends" are some of the most well recorded "pop" Lps. I also happen to be very fond of the musical content...
        
        BB Dickerson's bass was always particulary well recorded: great tonality & texture coming through there for a Fender Jazz bass and an easy and fluid sound to all the playing and singing comes through in a very graceful way.
        
        If Huston had much to do with that he deserves some serious kudos.
        
        "...You're all welcome to stay for the next set...we're going to play all the same tunes, but in different keys..." -Count Basie
        
        I love Chris' designs - Bruce B 13:17:30 10/09/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Those first War LPs posted by musetap on October 07, 2007 at 12:49:54
        
        Chris designed Mikel and my rooms also. For something that large, I'd suggest either the ATC or Duntech. You could also look into the Dunlavy and Wilson line. Don't know if the Wilson's are out of your budget or not. I'm using the WATT/Puppys and they should mate really well with the design. You might want to ask about the Talon line that Rives just picked up.
        
        Regards,
        Bruce
Ray Kimber used some speakers to demo his recordings at.... - Rick W 19:12:35 10/05/07 (0)
the NYC S'phile show a couple years ago that I thought were pretty damn good, especially for a big room. Better ask him, but IIRC they were a fairly large TAD model. I have no idea re:cost. They'd certainly fill the room, and seemed to handle both power and delicacy very well. It'd be worth asking Ray about 'em.
Do NOT go with passive ATC's, IMHO - chuck55 17:57:20 10/05/07 (0)
Passive ATC are very flat without the dynamic punch. They may be a bit bright on CD but should be a good match with LP's. Active 150's would be my first suggestion.

I would think Aerial could be too dull with LP's, again IMHO.

My other suggestions:

Tannoy Westminster $14,000

Dynaudio BM-15 $2,549/pair- do you really need to spend more?
If so yu could go with the AIR 15:
http://www.dynaudioacoustics.com/Default.asp?Id=321

Spendor SP-1/2 ~$2,400 - again, do you really need to spend more?

Krell $10,000 floor standers - forgot the name , maybe not made anymore. Plenty of bass.
- AIR 15 (Open in New Window)
UREI 813 - anumber1 14:51:27 10/05/07 (1)
Many, many recordings have been played back in the studio with these classic speakers.

Very versatile. I was a fool for letting a pair go.
--
Al G.
- UREI 813 (Open in New Window)
- Yep, they're everything they are said to be.... - doodlebug 08:52:34 10/06/07 (0)
  I've got a pair that I've restored. They're the first version mentioned in the article with the original Altec coax driver.
  
  For anyone who can pick up a set, do so, but plan on updating the crossover caps. Also look into reconing the Altec driver and then you can understand what the fuss back then was all about.
  
  Cheers,
  
  David
These? - mauimusicman 14:24:20 10/05/07 (0)
I would think with so many speakers reproducing musical waveforms wrong, the students might enjoy one that reproduces musical waveforms correctly, without smearing the time/phase information in the recordings. Simply an incredible speaker.
- http://www.greenmountainaudio.com/Speakers/Calypso/Welcome.htm (Open in New Window)
Legacy Helix ($44K) or Legacy Whisper ($16K) dipole bass more likely to sound natural in any rectangular room - Richard BassNut Greene 14:23:35 10/05/07 (2)
The original Whisper is the most natural sounding speaker I've ever heard in a home.

They were placed over 20 feet from the listeners, in a very large room, which may make my recommendation somewhat more useful than any recommendation for speakers based on an audition at a much closer range, in a normal size room.

I have not heard the similarly designed Helix, or the revised Whisper HD.

I have briefly met the speaker designer at his old Illinois headquarters and found him to interact just like speaker engineer, rather than like a salesman, or CEO.
.
.
.
.
.
Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
- Legacy Audio speakers page (Open in New Window)
- Yes! - musetap 16:06:14 10/05/07 (1)
  You've now made a far greater contribution to this thread than have I.
  
  Thank you, and I sincerely mean that!
  
  "...You're all welcome to stay for the next set...we're going to play all the same tunes, but in different keys..." -Count Basie
  - I have to third that..... - Bruce Kendall 18:59:48 10/05/07 (0)
    shit that was painful.
How do the ATC's stack up price wise? - Presto 13:10:12 10/05/07 (2)
Hi:

If the ATC's stack up price wise, then I'd say (with confidence) they would be hard to beat. Not too physically large, but large in all other aspects. The dome midrange is among the finest drivers on the planet, and has unusually flat off-axis reponse for a dome. Very very large magnet structure and very efficient. The mids (particularly vocals) of the mids of the "bigger ATCs" that have this wonder driver are just incredible. They not only have the incredible speed and detail you would expect at this price point, but this atypical presence and presentation that is just very very engaging and enjoyable without being too forward or fatiguing.

I think it's interesting you have ATC in that short list.

Do try and hear them. Don't take my word for it. They are world class and used in the finest studios for good reason.

I don't profit in any way by endorsing ATC. They just make me smile when I hear them play music so wonderfully.

I would not go with Wilson Sophia II's as bjh suggested IF I could get into ATC for the same money. Sorry Wilson fans, but the Sophias are NOT in the same league as ATC 150's IMHO. Not even close.

Cheers,
Presto
- I agree about ATCs - truthseekerprime 19:43:48 10/05/07 (0)
  While I've never heard the 150s, I have listened to some of the models on their lower end (the SCM50 among others). It's interesting that there's such a strong divide between the speakers renowned among audiophiles and those the pros use. I won't speculate on the reasons - but I will say that the ATCs I've heard are simply superb. And furthermore that active monitors are inherently superior to a passive design, both for solid engineering reasons and by audiophile-approved logic.
  
  On the other hand if the designer likes MBLs I reiterate that he should listen to the Linkwitz Orions I mentioned earlier. The characteristics of the sound are not dissimilar, but in fact I think the Orions are superior - and none of the speakers on your list are going to come close to that type of sound.
- RE: How do the ATC's stack up price wise? - bjh 13:53:04 10/05/07 (0)
  To tell the truth my experience with the Sophia II/McIntosh combo (with ML pre and CDP) was limited but I found they were a real screaming combo.... they scream "NOT HI-FI"!
  
  :)
  
  In other words *very* musically inviting, just the sort of thing that would be appropriate for young listeners, no training the ear to "appreciate" the sound, no mental exertion, just sit back and be swept away.
Wilson Sophia II - bjh 12:51:35 10/05/07 (0)
... driven by McIntosh MC501 monoblocks should be very nice!
You know what it sounds like? (warning - flammable) - carcass93 12:41:52 10/05/07 (1)
Indulging one's (two's?) lust for expensive toys in lieu of practicality and common sense, with utter disregard to purported educational aspect.
- Have a nice day. - John Marks 12:48:51 10/05/07 (0)
  nt
RE: Why stick with 2ch in 2007! - theaudiohobby 11:20:00 10/05/07 (0)
rick_m used term "Audio Amish" a while back and I gotta admit I like it, Why proceed with a 2-channel LP Playback in 2007! As Richard as rightly suggested if you really want to treat the students to a great system, your choice of equipment is absurd. Even with the shallow catalogue, a SOTA surround system will knock the spots off any 2-channel system LP or digital. And will be a lot a more convenient and a lot more consistent reproduction.

It is one thing to indulge a hobby on "classic" audio equipment, it is quite another to attempt to portray it as the pinnable of audio reproduction. My suggestion ask the KR for some suggestion on decent MCH system, for thing is sure, it will come closer to "real" thing than any 2ch can dream of.

Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
How do we submit our products for consideration? - Jeff Joseph 10:27:47 10/05/07 (1)
If they wish to have a similar balance over a broad listening area, I think we could make a strong case for the Pearls.

Jeff
- You just did. - John Marks 11:18:38 10/05/07 (0)
  Hi!
  
  In the fullness of time, the project manager will review this thread and the one on Stereophile's Forum.
  
  He has been an audiophile for decades, and regularly attends the Home Entertainment Shows.
  
  His clear preference for sound is for the big mbls, but there are practical and perhaps even acoustical considerations as well as perhaps cost issues.
  
  If you look at the architect's renderings, linked to on the post below, you can see that between housing for the collection, etc. this renovates the middle part of an entire floor of the library, so it is really a million dollar project, and only the smallest part of that can go to the stereo equipment in the large listening room.
  
  But they also want to buy it once and buy it right.
  
  Thanks for your interest,
  
  JM
I know its not practical but I would vote for Dunlavy 6s. - John N 09:59:30 10/05/07 (0)
Not practical because they haven't been made for so long. For a big room, what a flexible speaker!! My listening was mainly to the fives so I am extrapolating..
How about supporting some of the smaller manufs? - Bob Rex 09:53:35 10/05/07 (3)
Maybe the Salks or even VMPS? I would think that the RM40s would be competative with some of your selections.
- Sorry, not for that reason alone. - John Marks 11:33:05 10/05/07 (2)
  If the manufacturer of the speakers finally selected turns out to be on the small side, I have no problem with that.
  
  But to start out from a perspective of "affirmative action/give the little guy a break" does not appeal to me. This is donated money we are talking about spending, we owe it to the donors and the University to be prudent.
  
  There is a size threshold below which I would give a negative rcommendation, and that is a one-man company with no succession plans in place and no capital reserves. In some cases little or no cash on hand.
  
  And the companies I am thinking about in that regard have not been mentioned, so nobody should get huffy about their fave rave being insulted.
  
  There are at least two companies I can think of that make some of my favorite speakers, and both are cash-strapped hand to mouth designer-led companies, and I have doubts either could survive the disability or death of the founder. As someone else noted, Dunlavys are no longer made.
  
  But as you sould surmise with little reflection, neither the project manager nor I have on our lists the most successful national and international companies, either.
  
  Cordially,
  
  JM
  - RE: Sorry, not for that reason alone. - Bob Rex 14:08:28 10/05/07 (1)
    I wasn't thinking of the "affirmative action" / give the little guy a break angle, but was more concerned with missing potentially great product because of the size of the manufacturer. But you appear to have that well in hand.
    
    So the goal is to allow students and the public to hear great recordings under ideal circumstances. I think this is great. But (using the Duntechs and MBLs) as examples, wouldn't such large, exotic speakers intimidate, or even put off, many people?
    - In a large room Duntechs are not intimidating. (Photo attached) - John Marks 09:47:22 10/06/07 (0)
      Viewed head-on, Duntechs are narrow. They only appear large if you have to move them around.
      
      The above room is narrower than the proposed listening room, but has a peak ceiling. The Duntech 2001s are the outer rank of speakers.
      
      My worry about the mbls is people poking them with their fingers to feel where the music comes from.
      
      JM
Hartleys or Tannoys are clean and efficient and dynamic - mjda12 09:35:31 10/05/07 (0)
--Not to mention more cost effective than say, Aerials or Dunlavys that require lots of juice and $$$. As a matter of fact, back in the 70s
Brooklyn College had such a setup; using large Tannoys Tower speakers(Berekeleys?) in the Student's Rec room. The sound was awesome. This of course led me to purchase Hartleys Holton Towers. One of the worst audio decisons I've made was selling those Beautys when I moved cross-country. My subsequent purchases of Thiel CS3/Proac Studio towers/Rel subs. Will never equal the sound I used to have back then...
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - tlyyra 08:46:43 10/05/07 (3)
I've only looked into the ATCs you mention, so here's prompted by that:
Some of the bigger ME-Geithain studio monitors like RL901K or 903K would have no trouble filling the room. They are some of the most accurate & dynamic speakers in existence and much beloved by recording & broadcasting studios and music pros working in larger spaces (and people like Sony & EMM Labs MC/SACD demo crews traversing the audio fair circuit in Europe). Not sure what the availability in the U.S. markets might be, but you can always ask if intrigued (see link). The bigger MEGs are not cheap but you won't need to worry about amps & speaker cables, either (these are active monitors).
At least with the RL901Ks there is no need for subwoofers, either, and also the bass range has a cardioid radiation pattern that seems to work really well (I have a pair of these in my own room). With the sonically matching smaller MEG models you can go on to build one of the best MC systems available if cravings appear later. OK, the esthetics aren't a clear winner.
My 2 cents!
TL
- ME-Geithain ENG pages (Open in New Window)
Edits: 10/05/07 10/05/07
- Thanks--any idea of the cost in dollars? - John Marks 11:42:22 10/05/07 (2)
  Hi-
  
  Any idea what a pair of the big active monitors would cost in dollars? Just converted from Euros, not considering customs, insurance, freight, or markup.
  
  Thanks,
  
  JM
  - RE: Thanks--any idea of the cost in dollars? - tlyyra 12:18:26 10/05/07 (1)
    Last I checked the prices varied quite a bit, depending on the country/seller, so the best thing would be to contact them and ask, info@me-geithain.de also because I think they still do direct sales, their reasoning being that they hate making people pay an extra 30% for the dealer markup (a nice attitude by a manufacturer btw). The best dealer prices I saw last I looked were at about $14,000/pair for the RL901K, so if they still do direct, you could probably take that and maybe add a thousand or two to get a comparison point. Sales tax (VAT) went up a little in Germany not long ago.
    
    TL
    - MEG client list. - tlyyra 13:24:04 10/05/07 (0)
      Fears of going under or loss of support would likely be unfounded. Chances are that the Berlin Phil, all of the opera houses of that city, Staatskapelle Dresden, Leipzig Gewandhausorchester, Bavarian Radio, Northwest German Radio, Southwest German Radio, NHK Japan, RAI Italy, ORF Austria, Sony Classical Germany, Polygram Europe, and even His Excellency the former Cardinal Ratzinger are busy listening through the MEGs as we speak.
      And it looks like they are already exporting to the U.S.
      And, as emphasized by a couple of posters here, I would myself at least make sure I'm future-proof if nothing else in terms of the multichannel option.
      TL
      ME-Geithain partial client list (Open in New Window)
      Edits: 10/05/07 10/05/07 10/05/07 10/05/07
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - fstein02 08:32:27 10/05/07 (0)
This may be closing the barn door after etc., but the most cost-effective way of doing this might have been HEADPHONES ????? Any consideration made of this?
My Sennheiser 600s driven by a Grado amp leave very little to be desired acoustically beyound the fact that they have to be worn and the usual middle of brain perspective...and my other system IS panels (M-L)
Why not surround sound system? There is surround sound audio -- maybe you've heard about it? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:31:41 10/05/07 (9)
You never mentioned whether this was going to be a state-of-the-art home theater / surround sound audio room or just an "Audio Amish" two-channel vinyl room.

Two-channel audio is the wrong choice, IMHO, even if implemented perfectly.

Sorry to burst your two-channel bubble, Mr. Audio Amishman, but the professor will have to tie the kids to their chairs, stuff their mouths with cotton balls, confiscate their cell phones and IPODs, and probably threaten them with "F's", to get them to sit still for more than five minutes listening to two-channel music from vinyl records NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE SPEAKERS ARE!

After one minute of listening, these kids will realize they strongly prefer the surround sound music they hear while watching films at their local SURROUND SOUND cinema ... or in their rich friend's Dad's expensive SURROUND SOUND home theater!

With two or three rows of chairs planned, many listeners will NOT be in the optimum location for the best possible sound quality from ANY two-channel system.

If there is more than one row of listeners, surround sound is more likely to be a better choice than two-channel audio, because seating position will have a considerably smaller effect on sound quality.

Of course there may be a few weenies (probably a few token conservative students recruited to the liberal arts college for "diversity") who really want to sit still, and quiet, for one hour of listening to boring string quartets, and LOUD operas by German composers!

Of course, I could be wrong.
.
.
.
.

Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
- The main room will be 2-channel. There will be a DVD/Laserdisc room with surround - John Marks 09:03:04 10/05/07 (8)
  As the subject line says, the main room will be two channel. There are many good reasons for this.
  
  The school has received a bequest of approximately 17,000 mint LPs. E.g., the complete L'Oiseaux-Lyre catalog on LP. Nearly every DG and DG arkiv LP from the late 1950s through the end of LPs. Many unopened.
  
  This is a listening room in a library that will soon have a stellar classical-music collection. It is not a rec room on Fraternity Row.
  
  I find your characterizations insulting to many college students, although I readily admit that it might apply to some students at colleges other than this one.
  
  Some time ago, I lectured at Thomas More College on Elgar's Dream of Gerontius, and played excerpts on a Shahinian/Jeff Rowland/Sony SACD player system I brought in for the purpose. The entire student body attended, it was a mandatory Friday Night Lecture Series event. At the end of the presentation, I said that seeing as I was staying over, if any students wanted to reconvene mid-Saturday morning and listen to the whole thing and not just excerpts, I was willing. There was a show of hands, and six or eight students showed up and listened for their own edification, no course credit involved. And because I was a guest lecturer, I could not hand out Brownie points or increase anyone's grade.
  
  While some students may fit your "profile," I can assure that based on my decades of experience, there are students who would rather listen to a succession of Bartok quartet movements played by different string quartets than hear the latest from Bruce Springsteen.
  
  There will be a smaller room with projection and surround for opera Laserdiscs and DVDs.
  
  There will be carrels or cubicles for headphone listening.
  
  By the way, I am aware of surround sound. I produced an award-winning surround sound recording, and have contributed articles to Surround Pro magazine.
  
  JM
  - "(There) are students who would rather listen to a succession of Bartok quartet movements ..." - Richard BassNut Greene 12:55:17 10/06/07 (0)
    I'd say about six or eight students.
    
    Oh, and you have no sense of humor.
    Maybe you laughed once in 1972.
    
    Evidence that six or eight students would listen to string quartets when listening was not mandatory for a grade:
    
    YOU POSTED:
    "The entire student body attended, it was a mandatory Friday Night Lecture Series event. At the end of the presentation, I (asked) ...
    if any students wanted to reconvene mid-Saturday morning and listen to the whole thing and not just excerpts ... six or eight students showed up and listened for their own edification ..."
    .
    .
    .
    .
    
    Richard BassNut Greene
    Subjective Audiophile 2007
  - RE: The main room will be 2-channel. There will be a DVD/Laserdisc room with surround - theaudiohobby 11:25:39 10/05/07 (5)
    The basic point from Richard's post is correct, any 2ch system (irrespective) of media is inferior to the equivalent MCH system. I suggest the money here will be more wisely spent looking for an effective means of archiving these LPs to DVD(or CD). 2ch is in the past, the listening room of library will be better served by a "rugged" MCH system, by all means have some vinyl playback if you want (for reference) but not as the primary means of playback. This is 2007! That's silly.
    
    Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
    - "approximately 17,000 mint LPs..." - musetap 12:19:16 10/05/07 (1)
      Yeah, maybe a better passtime for the students, and a better use of the funds (which are probably just...endless) would be for them to all get together and burn those LPs to CD or some other type of digital playback for enjoyment in a MCH system!
      
      That would be SO much more 2007 than LISTENING to and ENJOYING music on vinyl on a fine 2 channel system! Especially when 2008 is right around the bend.
      
      "...You're all welcome to stay for the next set...we're going to play all the same tunes, but in different keys..." -Count Basie
      - RE: "approximately 17,000 mint LPs..." - theaudiohobby 04:23:15 10/08/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "approximately 17,000 mint LPs..." posted by musetap on October 05, 2007 at 12:19:16
        
        It will be interesting to see how long the turntable system, it's ancillaries (short of DJ jobbie) and the LPs survive in a public library. Interested in getting a wider audience to listen to great music, archive the LPs the disk, better accessibility, much superior ruggedness etc.
        
        Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
    - What musetap said about RBG pretty much applies here as well! LOL nt - bjh 12:00:10 10/05/07 (2)
      .
      - You just LOVE IT so much when someone else insults me that you just HAVE TO pile on ! - Richard BassNut Greene 14:28:42 10/05/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: What musetap said about RBG pretty much applies here as well! LOL nt posted by bjh on October 05, 2007 at 12:00:10
        
        Penalty!
        
        Penalty!
        
        Mommy says no dessert for little bjh tonight.
        .
        .
        .
        .
        .
        Richard BassNut Greene
        Subjective Audiophile 2007
        
        Sorry, Richard; it's not you... - tlyyra 14:40:43 10/05/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: You just LOVE IT so much when someone else insults me that you just HAVE TO pile on ! posted by Richard BassNut Greene on October 05, 2007 at 14:28:42
        
        ...it's him. The guy is really twisted.
        
        (Who else would go on record and recommend Wilson Sophias?)
        
        ;-)
        
        TL
  - Regarding finding insulting anything from RBG: consider the source; - musetap 10:54:15 10/05/07 (0)
    someone that is SO clueless as to use the term "Audio Amish" in conjunction with the electricity-powered audio hobby. His view of students would also seem to be consistent with many of the stereotypes that pepper his posts.
    Nice of him to stick to the subject and recommend some speakers, what?
    I'm sure he felt he was being humourous. Yet again...
    "...You're all welcome to stay for the next set...we're going to play all the same tunes, but in different keys..." -Count Basie
    
    Edits: 10/05/07
Revenge Of The Nerds-The Saga Continues - jdouglas51 07:31:23 10/05/07 (4)
this is the funniest thing i've ever read in the general asylum. Is this really happening, or a concept for a new savage steve holland film? Life really does imitate art.
- 100% Genuine. Here are the plans. - John Marks 08:09:04 10/05/07 (3)
  It's a real project.
  
  Info on the attached web link, including architect's renderings.
  
  JM
  - Ralston Listening Room (Open in New Window)
  - RE: 100% Genuine. Here are the plans. - theaudiohobby 04:42:39 10/08/07 (2)
    "elegant cherry paneled listening room with state-of-the-art audio and video equipment (for viewing musical performances, including operas) the Ralston Listening Library promises to be the finest facility of its kind at any college in America"
    
    ... I am amazed that you think your suggestion does justice to this. SOTA audio is not 2ch neither is vinyl and it has not been that for a long while. The project as expoused in your original post is the equivalent of showcasing vintage Buggatti, some may swear by it, love it or whatever, but SOTA it a'int. If you are truly interested in preserving this music for prosterity as opposed to showing some vintage playback equipment, I suggest archiving the music to hard disk and acquiring suitable equipment to access it.
    
    Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
    - RE: 100% Genuine. Here are the plans. - DRCope 11:41:30 10/08/07 (1)
      I'm not amazed that you think it doesn't. ;-)
      
      Vinyl, at the top of its game, along with tape at the top of its game, trump digital sound reproduction. While I market some very fine digital playback gear, it's always a relief to me, as well as countless show attendees when we fire up the vinyl. I've just gotten into R-R tape for the first time in about 50 years, (curse you, Doc B! ;-), and I'm currently buying about 10 classical tapes for every 5 LP's for every 2-3 CD's. The tape library has a lot of catching up to do, of course. I'm also having a grand time recording live classical music on tape which stomps the A-D I can get my hands on (for the moment. Sadly, my Otari 5050 does things to my back that a laptop will never do.)
      
      I've been saying for years that I'll take 2 channels of excellence over 5+1 channels of mediocrity any day, and have heard nothing to make me stop saying it yet. Perhaps something lurking in Denver will change my mind this week, but I doubt it.
      
      I can't be specific for fear of trying the Bored's patience, but you are under no such constraints. For chuckles, what, specifically, would you include in this system? (Please choose things where you are not the only perrson has ever heard - that is to say, ship your Franken-AR's. ;-)
      
      Keep your ears and your mind open.
      - RE: 100% Genuine. Here are the plans. - theaudiohobby 06:13:34 10/09/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: 100% Genuine. Here are the plans. posted by DRCope on October 08, 2007 at 11:41:30
        
        It is one thing to love a fully restored 1961 D-Type jaguar and use it as sole means of transport prefering it above all else, it is quite another thing to claim it is SOTA, Same applies to anyone buying a brand new Patek Phillipe mechanical watch today. However, it seems that many audiophile fail to appreciate this important distinction between SOTA and straight preferences. Vinyl is not SOTA audio reproduction in 2007 and it has not been for a long while. Today, that title belongs MCH audio playback and 5+1 channels of excellence will surpass 2ch of excellence every time, it is capable of doing much more. Whilst I can understand anyone's preference for 2ch vinyl, installing it in a public (student) library under the guise of a SOTA audio playback system is plain crazy. If the goal of the sponsors of this project is to make this music available to a wider audience not just the LPs, then the choice of playback equipment should be reconsidered, we are building a music library here not a museum.
        
        Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - noway 07:18:01 10/05/07 (0)
Haven't heard any of these but I would give them a look:

http://www.mackie.com/products/speakers/index.html
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - jim.spainhour 06:26:02 10/05/07 (4)
Aerial 20T's with tons-o-power.
- Plinius SA-250 works well with Aerial 20Ts - John Marks 07:14:39 10/05/07 (3)
  Dear Jim,
  
  Thanks for the wisdom. Compared to the Duntech pig in a poke, Aerial 20Ts are probably my choice for an all-around best practical solution.
  
  A Plinius SA-250 drove 20Ts to room-filling volume on pipe organ in a 60 x 33 x 15 room in a mansion in Newport. Without really trying. I can only imagine what a pair of SA-250s strapped for mono and running on 240V would do.
  
  If one does the arithmetic, the Duntechs still come out surprisingly ahead in frontal area of bass drivers. 226 versus 127 square inches per speaker. And they are an easier load. But they don't have the lovely ribbon tweeter.
  
  Thanks again,
  
  JM
  - looks like your priority is accuracy. - jim.spainhour 08:25:14 10/05/07 (2)
    the Aerials and Duntechs are both very strong in that regard. If any of you guys ever have the opportunity, go by the Aerial suite at the Mirage and listen to the 20T's. The most common remark as people exit...."Holy chit.I had no idea they were *THAT* good"
    - Not exactly! - John Marks 08:36:45 10/05/07 (1)
      Hi-
      
      My priority is a combination of immediacy, intimacy, and envelopment. Obviously, the room is a big factor in getting all that.
      
      But, for example, the niggling criticism I have heard from some folks with good ears is that the 20Ts' treble is a bit recessed for their tastes.
      
      Leaving aside the fact that there is a knob on the rear panel, my response would be that if the 20Ts treble is less accurate than other speakers', I can more easily live with that than the other choice.
      
      There are likely more "accurate" speakers than the 2001s, but, a well-set up pair in good condition (see my response to Peter B. below) will let you put in an eight hour day of editing and let you go home without the urge to drive off a pier and end it all.
      
      And, for a project this big and with the brainpower behind it, I think that a tweak here and there in a crossover, on-site, will be the finishing touch.
      
      Thanks again,
      
      JM
      - RE: Not exactly! - jim.spainhour 09:06:16 10/05/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Not exactly! posted by John Marks on October 05, 2007 at 08:36:45
        
        gotcha....at first glance it looked to me like you purposefully eliminated speakers with the ever-prevalent mid-bass hump and extra sparkle on the tweeter.
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - truthseekerprime 06:00:26 10/05/07 (0)
How about Linkwitz Orions?

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

I'd be a little concerned about SPL in such a large room, but I think coupled with two of his Thor subwoofers (a setup Linkwitz calls the Orion++) they'd do very well. You can have them manufactured to order; the speakers together with the recommended amp run around $8,000.
Fried. nt - Dan Banquer 04:36:30 10/05/07 (0)
nt
Bozaks CGs for Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - Peter Breuninger 04:25:55 10/05/07 (3)
John,

I would suggest a pair of Bozak Concert Grands. They have 8-12"s enough to fill a large room with LF and they are very diffuse on top like the MBLs. In fact, I believe the signature of the MBL is very close to that of the larger Bozaks. Wes Phillips gave them a big endorsement when he and JA listened to them at my home--he said they don't sound like audiophile speakers---they sound very diffuse kinda like being at a concert.

Plus they are very easy to drive---a 100 Watt SS amp like a classic Pioneer M-25 would be perfect!

Peter
- Peter- when will we see the next vintage review in SP ? - Ross 19:00:39 10/06/07 (0)
  nt
- Bozaks CGs vs 2001s - Peter Breuninger 05:20:09 10/05/07 (1)
  and... John,
  
  A dear friend of mine owned 2001s and I know them well. I believe them to have a dryish sounding midrange. They have great dynamics for sure. As a friend/reviewer to a friend/reviewer I would choose the Bozaks over the 2001s on any givin day. There is a huge following for the Bozaks---and there is a reason for this. The Bozaks play music just as well as my MBL101e's. The MBls have a more holographic presentation and faster bass---but that is it. I like them both equally.
  
  Plus, you can get involved with the Bozaks---rework the crossovers---add super tweeters---and you can find and replace drivers with ease. There is a 300 member bozak yahoogroup for support as well.
  
  Peter
  - 2001s are not a speaker, they are a lifestyle (or a cult) - John Marks 08:02:59 10/05/07 (0)
    Dear Peter,
    
    Thanks for the from the heart advice.
    
    I know exactly what you are talking about re: 2001 midrange. They aren't supposed to be that way.
    
    As far as I know, and I am somewhat plugged in in 2001-land or at least used to be, no new 2001s have come into the United States in many years. Sony Music Studios and Mastering have brought in some Princesses and other speakers, but nobody has pulled the trigger on 2001s in quite some time. So 2001s you hear here are at least 10 or even 15 years old, and many 2001s are now about 25 years old. How time passes!
    
    The acoustical damping behind the midranges (at least back then) was resilient foam. Unfortunately, that foam has a tendency to dry out and become brittle. It then no longer absorbs, it partially reflects. This changes the level and color of the midrange sound. The fix is to get in there with a Ginsu knife and a sanding block and get the dry hard foam all out, and replace it with acoustical synthetic wool.
    
    The degradation proceeds imperceptibly, so most people don't catch it.
    
    My chum Bob Saglio did that and a John Sollecito crossover mod to Bob Ludwig's 2001s, and Bob was to say the least quite pleased that for not much money at all, his speakers had a new lease on life and Bob L. got a couple of more years out of them before he plashed out on Eggle Ivys.
    
    Furthermore, the 2001s have continued to be developed as older drivers were superceded.
    
    But, to an extent, barring a trip to OZ, they are a pig in a poke. But arguably the most speaker you can get for the money in a speaker that ambitious.
    
    Bob Saglio ended up selling his upgraded and band-aided 2001s to Scott Hull, a mastering engineer for Steely Dan, who was happy to get them.
    
    So, your friend may want to get out the Ginsu knife!
    
    Cheers,
    
    JM
Tannoy, System 215 DMT II. nt - Steve Eddy 20:54:11 10/04/07 (3)
nt
- Thanks. I will say - John Marks 08:26:45 10/05/07 (1)
  Thanks. I will say that my brief audition of Tannoy's much-hearalded egg-shaped self-powered monitors was a crushing disappointment, I found them to be nearly unlistenable. I suspected that someone had turned the treble knob all the way up but was assured that that was not the case.
  
  But thanks, I will put these on the list. Surprised that the bass goes down only to 35 Hz. My guess is that it is a tradeoff for spl.
  
  Ciao,
  
  JM
  - RE: Thanks. I will say - Peter Breuninger 12:06:42 10/05/07 (0)
    or..
    
    Try to find Harvey's old pair of Westminsters.
    
    P.
- RE: Tannoy, System 215 DMT II. nt - newyorkp7 08:02:09 10/05/07 (0)
  Seconded for a lot of reasons, not the least of which would be the size of the room and the number of listeners who'll wind up listening "off- axis".
  I also think Mr. Marks' suggestion of MBLs would be good in this regard, but when I've heard them they haven't delivered the dynamics or the life force of the great Tannoys.
What a waste of money - suits_me 20:23:58 10/04/07 (7)
Undergrads won't even sit still for a black and white film anymore.
Despite their off axis lobing, I would suggest Vandersteen 3 or a VMPS in the same $ region. Even the Vandersteen Quattro is overkill. You think these speakers won't be dented or abused at some point?
Also, MBLs are panel speakers, for your friend's information. Bending wave in this case is simple a piece of titanium, esentially, driven by magnets at the ends. A sheet of metal...and with the waterfall plots to prove it's a panel driver.
- This signature is two channel only -

Edits: 10/04/07 10/04/07
- RE: You generalize ... - Dr. S 22:25:23 10/05/07 (0)
  I meet young people all the time who are either already conversant or very open and willing to learn about older genres of music and film. You should have seen two young women who will be appearing shortly, when they first heard Bessie Smith!
  
  Doc S.
- I obviously disagree re: Waste & Undergraduates - John Marks 06:47:52 10/05/07 (5)
  I am sure that your statement about undergraduates holds true for many students at many colleges.
  
  However, there are exceptional students and exceptional colleges.
  
  I don't know much about the school involved here (The University of the South, Sewanee TN) but it has a decades-long reputation as having one of the stellar English departments in America. It is geographically isolated and rather traditional, so you have to want to be there. I believe that it is sufficiently selective that parental pushing won't get you accepted, you have to be a standout student.
  
  One school I know an awful lot about is Thomas More College. For the first two years, the only course choice students have is whether they want to study Latin or Greek. For the second two years, half their courses are from the mandatory Humanities curriculum and half are from their major. Students are restricted to campus and need a faculty note in order to leave. Attendance at Friday night lectures and recitals (I present the recitals) is mandatory. Movie nights are optional, and a lot of the films are B&W or foreign.
  
  It's a lot of intense work. But it is a self-selected group, and they thrive on it.
  
  Similar colleges are Christendom, Thomas Aquinas, and Ave Maria--so-called "Great Books" schools.
  
  But yes, I'd venture that many students at URI are there to do the minimum necessary to get a career credential, and spend the rest of the time partying. Same for Brown, in fact.
  
  Cheers,
  
  JM
  - So what do those speakers you're thinking of provide that Vandersteen 3a's wouldn't? - suits_me 20:31:38 10/05/07 (4)
    Nothing, if you think about suitability to a purpose and limited resources.
    
    In Philly they are building an addition to the main library, when the library often has to curtail acquisitions and cut hours. The addition will cost hundreds of millions, is largely an open space, vaulting atrium, covered in energy wasting glass. From a functional point of view it's a near total waste. From the models it won't even be very good architecture - another failure, like Kimmel.
    
    Except as a monument and salve to the vanity of those who donate money for the addition. For that it's a huge success, no doubt.
    
    BTW, a 200k stereo system for what is essentially a music appreciation class would equally be a waste in an era of limited resources, no matter how good the English Department is (LOL), whether the institution is Brown University or RISD or not.
    
    - This signature is two channel only -
    - I wish you were joking but of course you are not. - John Marks 10:14:21 10/06/07 (3)
      I will deal with two issues separately.
      
      First, what do Aerial 20Ts offer that the Vandersteen 3as do not.
      
      Where to begin? Is "everything" a sufficient answer?
      
      In my experience, I could not get the 3a Signatures to sound anything but muffled, lumpy, and incoherent. I wrote in TAS something along the lines that if they did double duty in a home theater and you liked the sound I guess that could be OK. Harley had a fit, but, hey, I am not in an ass-kissing contest, I am on a beauty and truth quest. If you like the sound, they give good value for money. Not my cup of tea.
      
      Compared to the Aerial 20Ts, the Vandersteen 3as strike me as veiled, inarticulate, slow, and rolled off. Why shouldn't they? They are a very ambitious but very cost-compromised design. I am sure that if Mr. Vandersteen wanted to design and build a cost-no-object speaker he could, but that is not the market niche he has developed for himself.
      
      Furthermore, for this purpose, which is critical listening in a somewhat damped 7,000 cubic foot room, I am sure that the 3as will be inadequate in bass extension and clarity, and I have doubts that they will be able to fill the room without strain.
      
      That being said, years ago at a Stereophile HiFI Show, when Melos was still around, they demo'ed with Vandersteens, it might have been the 3s, and it was the best I ever heard Vandersteens sound, really very good.
      
      Two: Sewanee is a private school. Period. The listening room is part of a large renovation that will allow the University library to house a substantial bequest. The project will be all donor-funded. No funds from student tuition will go into this project. From what I am told, the donors want a project that will be a suitable memorial to a teacher they revere.
      
      By the same logic, one could ask a music department what a Bosendorfer piano gives that a Young Chang or Kawai doesn't. And in the case of a state school, that is a legitimate question. Rhode Island College just bought practice-room pianos that some faculty refer to as "plastic" pianos. But they were cheap and are supposed to be durable.
      
      Indeed, I think that poor audio very well might be an unconsidered holdback on the effectiveness of many music appreciation courses. Not being able to close one's eyes and imagine the musicians are there is probably a factor in many students not getting it, just going through the motions to get the grade. Fr. Ralston was passionate about music. He would invite students to his home to hear LPs on his system. He is now gone, and those who remember him want to recreate that.
      
      JM
      - RE: I wish you were joking but of course you are not. - suits_me 10:38:53 10/06/07 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I wish you were joking but of course you are not. posted by John Marks on October 06, 2007 at 10:14:21
        
        > That being said, years ago at a Stereophile HiFI Show, when Melos was still around, they demo'ed with Vandersteens, it might have been the 3s, and it was the best I ever heard Vandersteens sound, really very good.
        Those were 2's, with a pair of subs. I was there. Great music selections. Funny they sounded _so_ good in your view, but 3's are _so_ without merit.
        It's not about where the money comes from or whether you or I can name lots of better speakers. It's about efficiency and suitability to a purpose. But you go on consuming the planet and don't worry your little head about it.
        Be sure to post when the speakers are accidentally dented. With Vandies you buy a new sock. Or, heck, a new pair if it's that bad. That's the point.
        And when I said undergraduates won't even sit still for a black and white film: I meant even undergraduates at the leading film schools....
        - This signature is two channel only -
        
        Edits: 10/06/07
        
        Sorry you are so embittered. - John Marks 11:04:02 10/06/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I wish you were joking but of course you are not. posted by suits_me on October 06, 2007 at 10:38:53
        
        (1) I never said that the 3s were without merit, much less so without merit. The did not strike me as a high-end speaker. I am sure that there are listeners who want the combination of features they represent.
        
        I can't claim to have evaluated as many speakers as John Atkinson has, but I have evaluated quite a few. One phenomenon which recurs with regularity is that in a given manufacturer's line, a more complex and ambitious speaker often strikes me as less coherent and natural than a less expensive less complicated speaker. I would suggest that that might be the reason I liked the 2s and not the 3s. I also would guess on the basis of 30 years experience that for the amount both bite off, the 2 is less cost-compromised. And it's not that I have it in for Richard Vandersteen, I like the more expensive Shahinian Hawks less than the cheaper Obelisks.
        
        (2) I find your crack about consuming the planet to be beyond ridiculous. News flash: the Aerial 20Ts are already built, just like the Vandersteens. Not buying the Aerials will NOT save Bambi.
        
        Environmentalism is an anti-rational religion. Say hi to the Raelians for me.
        
        (3) I have no problem believing that a self-selected, happy to be there, educated group of young people will be able to take care of things they value. When I was at Brown, the university-owned house in which I lived had a 1920s Steinway in a commons room. It was played with varying degrees of competence and artistry at all hours of the day and evening. Ivan Waldbauer played on it once. Nobody carved their initials in it. Nobody poured beer in it.
        
        By the way, what the hell gives you the right to say "(LOL)" about the English Department at Sewanee? Please post a resume CV or precis of the credentials you have earned that entitle you to make that judgment.
        
        (4) You assert personal knowledge of the "best" film schools. Please explain how you come by that.
        
        And, even if you were factually correct in a few instances, three responses arise. (a) The teachers would appear to be less effective than they should be at passing on their love of the art. (b) The "best" schools have a way of attracting spoiled brats. (c) You know less than nothing about Sewanee, because what you think you know is wrong.
        
        JM
        
        Sorry you're insane - suits_me 21:31:06 10/07/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Sorry you are so embittered. posted by John Marks on October 06, 2007 at 11:04:02
        
        > Environmentalism is an anti-rational religion.
        
        LOL.
        
        Let me know when you ultra expensive monument to its donors' vanity gets dented. It's about suitability to a purpose....
        
        Your room sounds like a monument to unnecessary consumption. That kind of inane largesse definitely has an impact. Simple supply and demand. Don't you think a little consumer modesty might help the planet? Apparently not.
        
        Okay, so you like the English Department at Podunk. I already said my same comments would hold for your example, Brown. In fact, I said undergrads. (Now, there's always students who are the exception, of course.)
        
        I know about the nation's supposedly better film schools because I attended one, Jethro.
        
        I don't care how many speakers you've reviewed. You really enjoyed the 2s once and find the 3s really bad. I find that curious, because the speakers are fairly similar. You didn't address my VMPS suggestion.
        
        You sound kind of bitter, too, specifically that anyone would ever dare criticize the uses to which private capital may be put. Good luck with the ecosystem....
        
        - This signature is two channel only -
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - Pat D 18:08:39 10/04/07 (0)
Paradigm Signature S8
PSB Platinum T8
These cost considerably less than the ones suggested that I looked up. They are both excellent speakers and sound superb. They can be used with their grilles on (they are meant to be used that way), which should be an advantage in a school setting. They both measure quite well, though I think the S8 measures better myself, but I only have seen measurements for the first version.
If even deeper bass is wanted in a large room, they could always be partnered with a big subwoofer and still save money. A university could build a subwoofer easily enough, for that matter.
Another speaker I remember is the Ethera Vitae, a very fine speaker which maintains a stereo image over an extraordinarily wide angle. I heard them at length in the designer's home. A subwoofer would be needed in a big room like that. NRC measurements are available on the Soundstage site.
http://www.ethera.com/
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ethera_vitae/
I've never heard the GEDLee Summa, now sold to a company in Bangkok but it's evidently quite sensitive and some here like it a lot (Duke and Richard Greene). I couldn't find the web site. It could be driven with a receiver.
A Bryston 4B-sst will drive the Paradigms very nicely and has a 20 year guarantee.
In a school setting, security can be a problem. Be sure the speakers and electronics are hard to remove and are under tight security. Bigger, heavier speakers might be an advantage in this respect.
-
"It pertains to all men to know themselves and to be temperate."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
- http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s8/ (Open in New Window)
Edits: 10/05/07
Though I have not had the chance to listen - Might not the Legacy Focus fit the bill? - David S. 18:06:40 10/04/07 (0)
This speaker seems to bring out strongly opposing views, but it would seem to fit the bill in many respects.
Something a little more efficient, perhaps? - Metralla 17:58:51 10/04/07 (0)
- Egglestonworks Savoy - 85db/W/m
- Wilson Benesch Chimera - 88db/W/m
- Duntech Sovereign 2001 - 90dB/W/m
- Aerial 20T - 90dB/W/m
- ATC SCM 150 - 91db/W/m
Coincident Total Reference - 97db/W/m. Impedance doesn't go below 6 Ohms. Could be a lot easier to drive than the ones above.

Regards,
Geoff
RE: Zu Definitions.... - alan m. kafton 16:57:25 10/04/07 (0)
Apparently they can do it all. Self-powered woofage and 101dB efficiency, which can fill a concert hall if necessary. Pricing is far less than the other offerings you mentioned as well. Who knows....the Zu boys might be able to offer very favorable pricing as this is for an educational institution. I was just told by a reviewer over the weekend that the new Definition 2's are a serious improvement over the previous iteration.
- http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu9/definitionpro.html (Open in New Window)
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - Doc B. 16:30:08 10/04/07 (5)
In the budget and sound quality range you are suggesting you might also consider the Bob Hodas modified Meyer Sound X-10s. A plus is that they are quite bulletproof and they are also self powered, thus easing the budget requirement a bit. My inclination would be to stay away from ribbon tweeters for this kind of application unless someone on staff has the technical chops to make a tweeter replacement when the ribbon gets stretched from an errant hot plugging.

I'd suggest Magico Minis too, with suitable subwoofers. But I'm not sure if they would be optimal in a room that size.
- BINGO! - Vic D 05:05:36 10/05/07 (4)
  I've heard Mr. Hodas' results and Doc B's suggestion is on the money. With the seating arrangement you've described the trick will be getting a much wider listening area compared to a typical home setup. Your list is spectacular but professional room anaylisis would be a wiser use of budget IMO.
  
  http://www.bobhodas.com/
  - The room acoustics are being designed by Rives. - John Marks 06:36:48 10/05/07 (3)
    So they will in the first instance be predicted, not analyzed.
    
    The walls will then be put where they should be.
    
    When the room is in the finish-carpentry stage, it will be voiced.
    
    This ain't my first rodeo.
    
    Cheers,
    
    JM
    - RE: The room acoustics are being designed by Rives. - Doc B. 07:37:21 10/05/07 (2)
      Oops, sorry John, I failed to consider that Rives is doing the consulting. Definitely not the proper decorum to ask Bob to do some speakers but not ask him to tune the room.
      who Bob has worked with (Open in New Window)
      - I only meant to say that the plans start with room acoustics - John Marks 11:10:50 10/05/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The room acoustics are being designed by Rives. posted by Doc B. on October 05, 2007 at 07:37:21
        
        Nothing else.
        
        You stated: "Your list is spectacular but professional room anaylisis would be a wiser use of budget IMO."
        
        My reply was to let you know that professional room design was in the budget from Day One.
        
        No big deal.
        
        I will look into the Hodas modded Meyers. I am sure that pros can work together without it turning into a parody of operatic one-upmanship.
        
        Thanks.
        
        JM
        
        RE: I only meant to say that the plans start with room acoustics - Doc B. 14:28:34 10/05/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I only meant to say that the plans start with room acoustics posted by John Marks on October 05, 2007 at 11:10:50
        
        "You stated: "Your list is spectacular but professional room anaylisis would be a wiser use of budget IMO.""
        
        Actually I didn't. That was stated by someone else. I gathered from your initial post that the project would be well thought out from the get-go, and I support your notion of the necessity for both good speakers and a good room for them to live in. I admit to being spoiled by access to rooms and speakers whose owners use them as tools for their profession and who are willing to spend the money necessary to get it right. Their influence has been most undermining of my own cheap behavior, and I am interested in this discussion partly because I have been subtly pushed towards getting my own "proper" room (subtly like "Jeez Dan, you're an audio manufacturer! When are you gonna finish that listening room you started ten years ago?)
        
        FWIW Bob is quite competent at shooting and analyzing the room while under construction - a wall at a time if you will. I have seen him perform this a few times, and it can serve to head off a few rude surprises before they get too deeply ingrained in the layout. I'm sure that the folks at Rives are good too, and I wish I could say that I have heard a room they have done. Perhaps soon, as MikeL has decided to go over to the dark side and install a tape machine in his Rives designed room...
RE: Recorded-Music Listening Room for Liberal-Arts College: Speaker Choices - Travis 15:57:54 10/04/07 (1)
I'm a panel man, myself and your music lover likes that omni directional sound of the MBLs. I have listened to the Gradient Revolution and thought it had many of the qualities of panel speakers, especially the sound field. Another attraction is that it's not visually imposing, always a good thing where possible. They're also famous for their sub-woofers as combined with the QUAD 63. Seems worth a listen.

Be-Bop and Mahler
- Thanks - John Marks 16:13:53 10/04/07 (0)
  I have heard the Gradient Revolutions. Nice speakers.
  
  My reservation would be that their size plus open-baffle design might mean that they would have trouble filling a 7,000 cubic foot room that will be somewhat damped rather than live.
  
  But I will pass the idea along.
  
  Thanks,
  
  JM

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