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In Reply to: Re: Ok, so I will try this without being snotty posted by chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com on May 17, 2007 at 11:02:25:
AH! Gloves off, toe to toe, I respect that. Let the games begin!"It doesn't matter all that much what happens in the distribution end, IF the original recording preserves the event."
My point, lost again, is that in this moment in time any one of a number of distribution media may be selected. It is irrelevant in terms of what is preserved on the original recording. If it is worthy music, and a worthy recording, I promise you … someone will dig it up, clean it up and re-release it. Sheesh, if they re-release Duran Duran they will do anything.
"The SACD of Dave Brubeck's TIME OUT, started life as a remarkable analog tape, in the days of thermionic electronics."<
And my point is that their masters are falling apart. And sadly there is no whole sale funded project for preserving them, such as there is with films. Even many classic recordings of the sixties are in very rough shape, and may only have a couple of plays left in them. That being the case, wouldn’t you rather the transfer go to the highest fidelity medium, regardless of politics?
"I sleep well, knowing that it has been preserved in the best recording medium we have currently".<
>
Dismissive, and pompous, as you would say, but compare DSD to high rez PCM - 194K, 20-20,000 frequency response, 70+ dB dynamic range, to 2.88 Megahertz, 0-100,000 frequency response and 110 USABLE dB of dynamic range. For the little bit of objective data that can be stipulated to, seems fairly clear, without us continuing to throw subjective lobs at each other.
"Is it possible to do better on the recording end than analog? Absolutely. This is where DSD excells. And this is my point. I am concerned that if we lose SACD as a distribution medium, we may also lose DSD as a recording and archiving medium."<
Friction and mechanical hurdles? Do you mean dragging a mineral tipped needle through the softness of vinyl, the absolutely labyrinthian path from tape head or cutting head, to record, to … and on and on. Do you mean brick wall filters at 20 and 20 K for PCM, and decimating the entire signal, with limited word lengths? Why do you think there are brick wall filters in PCM?Just the geometry of analog is bewildering to most, and I say this as someone with a killer analog set up and lots of records.
<That being said, I'm very happy with CD and believe that high-rez PCM is superior to DSD. :0) <<
Recording is, per force, a process of transduction … turning one kind of energy into other kinds of energy in a series of steps, each of which adds and subtracts. The process is mostly anything but seamless.However, having had direct experience with short path (no more than fifty feet of microphone cord) through ONLY a microphone preamplier to a DSD recorder, with NO intervening steps, I will stick with my pronouncement. There simply is no contest.
I have thousands of CD’s and many are very enjoyable, but they are pale lights of what is possible with pure, native DSD, as is 196k (when rarely found) PCM, simply because most of the issues with PCM remain, regardless of resolution.
I buy CD’s because they quit putting the music I liked on LP’s, not because I thought they were an improvement.
<<"I am indifferent to people's choices in distribution media. If you want to listen to a distributed form in some sort of F'd up, heavily downsampled whatever ... be my guest. Who cares? As you proudly pronounce, you are the consumer. It is your choice."
I thought you said you weren't going to be snotty?
Seems like you F'd up!<<
How is that snotty? Personally, I think the sound from an I-Pod is absolutely horrific. But I would never, ever intimate or interfer or criticize someone who chooses that distribution medium, unless they are doing it out of ignorance (like most people who buy Boze).
"But if the original recording is forever trapped in a technically inferior medium".Again, your opinion so it's a big IF, but I'm surprised you are able to enjoy 'Time Out' at all when it was captured on inferior analogue tapes.
Where did you draw the conclusion I am down on analog. Hell man, I love the stuff … tubes too. My issue with classic analog tapes is that they are deteriorating. We are going to lose a lot of music forever.
"And on a personal note, why is it that the few voices crying for the best we have at the recording end are on our "high horses?"
<
Nay, nattering nabob, I originally took issue with you “celebrating” the presumed demise of SACD. Your point was that DSD diserves to die, and that is simply irrational. It is neither pompous or condescending to oppose that sort of gleefully shallow thinking. I am a big analog fan … to the point where I sport a custom deck (Jena Labs) built around a Technics SP-10 – SME-1O arm, Cardas Heart MC Cart, a BAT VK-P10-SE tubed phono. I would say that is pretty good evidence I am not anti-analog.
"If I want Velveeta, I should have it ... but, it would be nihilistic to deny another, with perhaps a more refined palate, the Stilton he is nibbling with the just perfectly ripe pear and walnuts."<
Because I prefer Stilton to Velveeta, lol … OK, guys, let’s see a show of hands out there … cheese whiz or a french triple cream? lol.
"This is SUPPOSED to be about audio as art ... we should want the best, not celebrate a woeful compromise."<
I celebrate your right to have the yellow box and munch away to your heart’s content. You on the other hand, celebrate something you think should go away … hum, which is the more insulting behavior?
Follow Ups:
This is more like it good Doctor - you've gone from someone I'd probably tip my pint over to someone I could actually have a drink with whilst engaging in a healthy though heated debate, although being essentially tea-total it would have been a mineral water so no real harm done.Now I dare say we could carry on batting the DSD ball between us ad nauseum with rallies which could rival Nadal vs Federer on clay in their duration and intensity, but as with religion and politics we have our entrenched positions and we're not going to budge are we?
"My point, lost again, is that in this moment in time any one of a number of distribution media may be selected. It is irrelevant in terms of what is preserved on the original recording. If it is worthy music, and a worthy recording, I promise you … someone will dig it up, clean it up and re-release it. Sheesh, if they re-release Duran Duran they will do anything."
This is the crux of your argument and despite your suspicion it isn't lost on me at all. You believe that so long as a performance is recorded to the very best medium we have presently, that performance is saved for posterity and technological advances could enable better and better quality replay so long as the initial recording was of the highest quality.Yes, I agree with the principle as any sane minded person would, but I don't agree with your assertion that DSD is the medium and the problems with DSD as an archiving medium are real.
Perhaps when the sampling frequency is doubled as I seem to remember Michael Bishop mentioning, the noise will be pushed further up the frequency range and become less of an issue (even a non-issue), but until then DSD is not suitable for archiving in my opinion.I've included a link which many people will no doubt have already read, but there are many more critics of DSD out there who aren't merely critical because they have financial interests in DVD-A.
Obviously the equipment now exists so that the PCM conversion referred to during mastering doesn't need to take place.
Get a good set of high-end headphones and listen for yourself.
Until a format is invented with less audible noise that DSD, DSD will remain the best format for archiving.
"Music is love"
Teresa
"Get a good set of high-end headphones and listen for yourself."
I'm currently selling a pair of Stax Lambda Signature headphones with the SRM-TIS valve energiser Teresa.
Why is it that people such as yourself and the good Dr can't acept opinions contrary to their own without assuming the contrary opinion is obviously uninformed?
It's arrogant and says more about you than it does of me.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
and you will hear for yourself.
Here is an easy test:
A PURE DSD SACD such as one of the many Telarc SACD
versus
An Original 192kHz or 96kHz 24 Bit recording via DVD-Audio such as from AIX, Hodie or others.
And listen for low level noise, you have to wear headphones as none of these recordings have ANY audible noise through speakers.
And your will be able to hear for yourself in the audible range DSD is quieter than PCM.
I gave this as an example so you could hear it for yourself. But hey you thing low resolution Redbook CD is all we need. I refuse to limit myself the way you do that is why I have multiple formats to my beck and call!
It is your refusal to test these things for yourself that is arrogant!
"Music is love"
Teresa
"And your will be able to hear for yourself in the audible range DSD is quieter than PCM."
So by that logic, DSD is better than analogue yes?
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
"So by that logic, DSD is better than analogue yes?"
DSD is quieter in the ultrasonics versus LP which between 20kHz - 50kHz is 50% noise. But that does not mean that DSD is sonically superior to analog.
By the way why are selling the Stax and what have you found that is better?
"Music is love"
Teresa
"DSD is quieter in the ultrasonics versus LP which between 20kHz - 50kHz is 50% noise. But that does not mean that DSD is sonically superior to analog."
I rest my case. :0)
"By the way why are selling the Stax and what have you found that is better?"
I bought the Stax rig because my system is boxed up while I do work in the house, and the intention was to have the Marantz CD7 with Stax in the corner of the living room so I could at least have some quality listening to prevent withdrawal symptoms.
As it is I rarely get the living room to myself nowadays and I can't leave the Marantz alone as there are also a lot of kids running around with it being Summer.
After moving everything to the bedroom I ended up like a hermit, sat alone in the dark for hours. My girlfriend wasn't too impressed and too be honest headphones just don't 'do it' for me Teresa - better to sell them and put the money towards an upgrade to the main system.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Ok, I typed this really articulate and witty response, and it disappeared into never never land when I went to preview it ... grrrrrrr
The noise thing is nonsense, too high up in the band to be an issue, and with pcm there is always the frequency response limitation and decimation to contend with.
If I had the opportunity to sit you down in the control room and listen to a live to dsd surround recording of the Basie band, I am confident the experience would have turned you into a drooling convert, but c'est la vie
My concern is that these internecine battles in audio (DSD versus PCM, tubes versus SS, etc.) are nothing to celebrate ... the should be a source of embarrassment.
Take care,
Doctor S.
"My concern is that these internecine battles in audio (DSD versus PCM, tubes versus SS, etc.) are nothing to celebrate ... the should be a source of embarrassment."
I disagree - it's very healthy so long as the participants don't take themselves too seriously and respect their opponent's point of view. :0)
The biggest source of embarrassment and what damages audio reproduction is corporate greed, and format wars created not because one company believes their format is best, but because they want to have a bigger share of the pie and in Sony/Philips case they wanted to offset the loss of the CD patent.
If the backers of DVD-A had backed SACD it would have succeeded and visa versa, but manufacturers of hardware, recorders of software and consumers wanted to know which format was going to be 'the winner' before committing and we know what has happened.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Well, I am certainly not going to defend Sony on any grounds whatever. I think they are nefarious, and if SACD fails, it is largely because of their own internal insanity that has Sony Music actually opposing SACD in the market place, which is nuts, whatever their opinions.
Don't confuse the technology with who owns it. Trust me, you would pretty much have to stop eating, drinking, and consuming most everything if A: You knew where it came from and how it was produced, and B. You knew the politics and practices of the people who made it.
As to the internecine battles in audio, I will also remain in disagreement. To say, "I prefer the sound of tubes and planars" is very diffent from the typical, "If you listen to anything other than X, you are a malodorous bolus of hog phlegm" which is pretty much how it goes.
I actually had a manufacturer queer a positive review, when their marketing rep learned that I had, GASP, solid state equipment in my reference system!
With that in mind, you have not acually heard native DSD, so my original chastisement stands. If you want to assert a cogent disagreement, go forward and take the experience. What possible harm could it do to you to actually go listen to what you are chastising?
Until then, you are pretty much arguing from every standpoint (and in my opinion, unsuccessfully) but personal experience.
The Good Doctor
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