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In Reply to: DSD's limited ability to handle HF percussion is clearly audible. posted by Jim Pearce on January 29, 2003 at 12:47:07:
...the timing.
Follow Ups:
My ears, my system. DK, When I Look Into Your Eyes, "I've Got You Under My Skin", brushed cymbals throughout the track. They are more clearer and more detailed on the CD as played back through my Marantz SA-14. Just bear in mind, I don't think this is a big deal - just as I don't think the watermark thing is a big deal. Nothing is perfect.
the last time you quoted this as an example, not only can't i hear what you claim, but i appear to be hearing more resolution on sacd than what you are hearing on your system (sacd or cd), so whatever the limitation is it's not in the medium.
Christine,
Yes, but not now because I'll need to cite track and time on Waltz for Debby and Know What I Mean?. By the way, sarcasm aside, my conclusion was that you could well be getting less resolution on CD on your system than I am on mine. How you could conclude that you were getting better resolution on CD (where I indicated that I was hearing far more detail in the brush strokes than on SACD) and SACD is beyond reason. Since we would each need to spend 48 hours on planes to do an A/B (and my aural memory wouldn't survive 48 minutes) this will remain a mystery.
it's quite simpleyou say you can't hear hiss unless you turn up the volume. i can hear hiss even at low volume levels. i can even hear a slight wow and flutter characteristic on the hiss.
you say the brushwork sounds like hiss on sacd
it sounds nothing like hiss on either sacd or cd on my system
ergo, i am hearing more than you (this is not intended to be sarcastic or condescending, although i appreciate it sounds a bit blunt)
also - my advice to you was to listen to the disc on another system to see if your impressions can be replicated. have you done so?
since then, i have heard the disc on a high end system (xa777es, krell preamp, halcro dm58, b&w signature 800) and i can confirm all the detail that i quoted are present and even more on a higher end system - far higher than yours or mine.
therefore, there is nothing wrong with the medium, no?
As I recall, your normal listening level (SPL) is higher than mine. I said that the hiss was lying at about -70dB and the brushwork at about -60dB. I said that turning up the volume made the tape hiss objectionable, not audible. I don't think that the dynamic level of the hiss should change appreciably from system to system. Actually, I said that the brushwork sounded like hiss on my brother's 670. I have no doubt that the CD replay on my Marantz SA-14 is significantly better than your Sony's. Why don't we let Methos listen for himself?
i "turned up" the level to match what you quoted (above 80dB) in your post. that does not imply that is my normal listening level.by the way i said the hiss was detectable even at low listening levels, an observation which you chose to ignore again and again. this clearly shows your system is not resolving the hiss when *you* (not me) listen at levels below 80dB. and it's not tape hiss - it probably comes from the mic.
and you did not say the brushwork sounded like hiss on your brother's system. from memory, you said you couldn't hear the brushwork on your brother's system. you took extraordinary trouble to correct a poster (twice!) who *correctly* noted that there was hiss on the track, which strongly indicates *you* did not observe the hiss.
*** I have no doubt that the CD replay on my Marantz SA-14 is significantly better than your Sony's ***
more sarcasm again?
i would be very interested to hear on what basis you are saying that. have you actually A/B'ed cd replay on the sa-14 vs xa777es? i have, on more than one system.
ps - i don't see how my posts are impeding methos' ability to test for himself. all i am saying is that you have yet to convince me.
Yours as I recall is more like 75dB. On my brother's 670 you can't distinguish between the brushwork and the hiss, even though they are a good 10 dB apart. The poster had a low end Sony as well.
it ranges from 70-90dB (!!!) depending on the material for critical listening, and also whether i am reviewing or not. but typically lower than higherfor background listening of course it is much lower
i don't know where you got the impression that my listening levels are higher than yours - i have never stated that, all i said was i tried matching the level to the level you quoted in your post.
anyway the point is that the hiss is clearly audible on my system even when the material is played at 60-70dB SPL - maybe even lower than that. i certainly don't have to crank it to 80dB like you do just to hear it.
I filter out hiss until it becomes objectionable. However, I can't hear hiss recorded at -70 dB when playing at 60 dB on any system.
.
nt
As soon as my stereo is re-assembled (I just moved), I will listen for this. I may just hook up my preamp for a headphone session first.
nt
the most likely conclusion to this test will be that one party says he hears something bad on an SACD and the other party says he doesn't. I have seen this type of thing happen in the same room with two people listening to exactly the same material. Disagreeing about what they are hearing. So across the world, with different systems, is agreement likely? Not at all. There will never be one right answer to these kind of questions anyway.
Furthermore, even if there is limited dynamic range in SACD relative to CD and DVD-A above 10 kHz, it would be easy to get around this through careful engineering.
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